The Enemy Between Your Ears

Episode 6 - The greatest battle you'll ever fight may not be happening around you—it may be happening inside your mind. In this episode of The Conviction Exchange, Chandler, Shawn, and Phyllis take a deep dive into the real battleground of life: the thought patterns inside our own heads. 

Phyllis (our resident therapist) breaks down the powerful psychological and spiritual distinction between fear and anxiety—and why your brain is acting as a "prediction machine" meant to keep you safe. Meanwhile, Shawn highlights a bold perspective from Luke 12:4 on why eternity changes how we view daily battles, and Chandler shares a personal wake-up call about how screens and doom-scrolling are pulling us out of real connection. 

Whether you're struggling with high-stakes worry, feeling paralyzed by worst-case scenarios, or searching for practical tools to speak life over yourself, this conversation offers grounded biblical truth, therapeutic wisdom, and a reminder to keep taking steps forward with Jesus. 

To pre-order Phyllis's new book "I Never Knew" visit www.ineverknewbook.com 

Thanks for listening to The Conviction Exchange.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well, hey everybody, thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Conviction Exchange, where we share lots of love, plenty of laughs, and as always, it's rooted in biblical truth. We only have one rule that everybody has an opinion, but not everybody has a conviction. Our question is this What are you willing to stand on when everybody else sits down? Join us in this week's episode of the Conviction Exchange. We're so excited that you're here and hope you have an amazing and a blessed day. Let's see what everybody's talking about.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

So we went to Dutch Brothers, my first time, by the way. I was gonna ask you about that. And we we got on a discussion. Phyllis and I got on a discussion on the way here, trying to figure out where it's from because they they don't think they got these in St. Louis. And um What, Dutch Brothers? Yeah. Okay. We got all the way to somehow we started talking about curds because she's talking about cheese curds, and she said curds in the way. Curds in the way. Remember curds in way? Remember the Curds in Way. What is this?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

I was like, Curds in the Way.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

You would eat your way out of that mess.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Absolutely, I would. I love cheese curds. I'll give those up. Hey, uh, you know who has the best cheese curds? Who? Culvers.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Well, they're from Wisconsin. They're supposed to. But what's whey? That was the question we had is whey.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

It just well, he's the one that said it just donned. Well, we'll see what you say it is first.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Curds whey? Like whey, like whey protein. Oh. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

It's heavy.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

What is it? Is it a plant?

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Is it a I don't think he's ever heard the nursery rhyme thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

You never heard little Miss Muffet set on her Tuffet eating her curds and whey. So no. Along came a spider and sat down beside her and frightened Miss Muffet away.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I feel like I've heard that, but I for some reason feel like somebody was like, you know, we should rewrite this. And it should not be curds and way.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

It was Andrew Dice Clay, but it was the worst. It was profane. You probably know that one. You're you're so stupid.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

I know who Andrew Dice Clay is.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

He was a potty mouth.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

I don't know who Andrew, Andrew Dice Clay. I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

He was a potty mouth comedian from the 80s and 90s. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

He was a potty mouth.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

He was.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Andrew, if you're listening, you're a potty mouth.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

So wash your mouth out with soap in whey. Wash your mouth out with whey. That's funny.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

So she was eating curds in whey, and none of us know what it is.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Nobody. Some kind of old cheese, some protein in there. She was she was so that she's probably getting ready for a CrossFit workout.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

I was guessing that it maybe was some kind of byproduct of when you're making something like that.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

What's a toughet? She was sitting on a toughet.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

That's a great that was my other question I was gonna ask. What's a toughet? Is it a mushroom?

SPEAKER_04 2:54

In my mind, I thought.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

So she's sitting on a big mushroom. Drinking way protein. Is this like Mario? This is an LSD with advanced grinding there. This is something the Beatles would have put on an album. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

He wrote it while he was on LSD, and everyone's like, wow, that sounds like a nursery rhyme.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Have you ever noticed that all the nursery rhymes can get really morbid?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, they can. It's really bad. When you like say them over now, you're like, oh yeah, I listened to some songs like from back in the day now, and I'm like, yeah, I didn't understand that then, but now it makes a lot more.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

I mean, that one's about arachnophobia.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

You gotta put a name on it. Therapist. Everything's a phobia of some. What's the fear of therapists? I got that.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Therophobia.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

There's probably one out there.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

I guarantee there is. I actually I don't even have my phone. I wanted to know what that is. What's the fear of therapists? I want to know.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

We need a research person on staff.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

There we go. I'll look it up.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

Y'all gotta keep talking though, or it gets boring. Oh, it gets boring.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Fear of therapy.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

But the girl at the coffee shop uh maybe listen to the podcast. We showed her uh the hat. She said she needs a hat because well, Phyllis said because she's out the window and the sun's this time of day, because my office is on the east side too. Yeah, sun just blares in and she's trying to hand out coffee and it's just blinding.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

And Phyllis is like, we should get her a visor. And I said, Here, you want the hat? And it's her, it's the old hat, the old Whites Ferry Road hat with the symbols that her dad used. And she was like, Oh, my dad would love that. And I said, Well, does he know what it is? And she goes, No, but he just loves hats.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

Well, and he likes the cross.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Did you give it to her? Yeah. Well, it's all sweat stained. And I said, take a picture of it. And then I said, and then I told her about our podcast. And that ain't cool, man. You should have given her the hat. It had sweat stains all over, and I'm not going to give her somebody sweaty stains.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Holly.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

But we're talking about like actual funk.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I got a lot of funk in my past. Praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

Okay, there's no single officially designated medical word that exclusively translates to fear of therapy, but there is latrophobia or latrophobia. This is the official diagnostic term for the extreme fear of doctors, medical tests, and medical care and tomophobia, the fear of medical interventions or procedures and phobophobia.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

The fear of fear existence is phobophobia. That John F. Kennedy disease, the phobophobia.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

The phobophobia. So what I do want to talk about today, what at least my thought is, a lot of times that fear of whatever you want to call it, it starts in our mind. Um and we trick ourselves to because I I heard this interesting thing once where it was like I forget what the percentage was, but it was some was somewhere like 75 to 80 percent. And maybe you've heard this, but like so much percentage of the things that we actually worry about or we think about or we're battling with in our minds that we think are gonna happen or not gonna happen, actually they don't ever happen in our lives. So we're battling constantly in our brains, and we're just like, okay, you know, or am I gonna get this house? Am I gonna get this job? Is this gonna happen to my family? And all these different things. You're worried about all these different scenarios, and then all those scenarios turn into 10 little ones, and you all are all of a sudden your brain's just so bogged down when 90%. I would go on a limb to say 90% of the things that I think about and I worry about on my daily in my daily life don't actually happen. And so in my Bible reading the other day, I was just thinking about that thought of taking every thought captive and making it obedient to Christ. And the thought that came to my mind was just like, just keep walking. Like you just gotta walk on that road with Jesus and continue to be obedient to him. Because I think we we stop, it's when we stop and we stop focusing on Jesus and we take the left turn or we take the right turn, we stop walking with him, all of a sudden the maybe the smoke gets thick, like the clouds get that's where the devil just wants to isolate you. And it feels like all of a sudden those thoughts in your brain become impossible to manage. So my question, just to start, um today, is do you think the biggest battles in life happen around us or inside us?

SPEAKER_04 7:25

That's a very good question. I think, well, I I looked this up, and even Jesus said that evil comes from the heart and it's what shapes us. That's in Mark 7 23-23. Um so that is true. It comes from inside us. I would also say, just as a caveat for those listening that may battle like an anxiety disorder, um there's a difference in like thinking about what could happen. Like that's anxiety. Fear is can be a fear of a real thing, like a snake because you got bitten, or a dog, you know, you're you're afraid of dogs. Um, but anxiety, by definition, is the fear of something that hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

I've never heard that. I don't know why I've never heard that, but that's that actually helps my brain. Like it's the fear of something that actually hasn't happened yet. I think people needed to hear that because there's a lot of people who are like, I'm super anxious, but it's something that's already happened to you, and you have a reason to fear something like that.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

So fear versus anxiety, because anxiety is what hasn't happened. And and there's a distinction between what could happen and what will happen. And that's when it's kind of good to tell, like, you know, I talk to kids about like a storm if they're afraid of you know, storms. Um, you know, well, it could be this, it could be this. I'm like, well, that's what could happen, but how many storms have you been through? And in Louisiana, it's a lot. You know, how many thunderstorms and lightning, how much lightning have you ever seen? And they're like, Oh, so many. And you're like, Well, has that ever happened? What you just mentioned? No. I'm like, Well, the chances are it's not gonna happen. It could, it could, there could be a tornado, but that doesn't mean it will happen. Yeah, so there's a distinction, and then some people have anxiety disorders, and that could be from something that actually happened or chronic things that have happened in their lives, and it causes chronic anxiety. Um, and there's different types of anxieties, but some of them need like treatment.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great and the Bible is a treatment, and that may be all a person needs to rewire their brain. Um, I have a t-shirt that says scripture is my coping skill. So there there is that. And then some people may need, you know, a good therapist to walk alongside them as they, you know, work on the anxiety and what what's the root cause of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Do you think that that's the reason that like you know, when we talk about just therapy, you mentioned therapy, or you know, do you think that's a reason that biblical therapy is so important when you have somebody that's walking you? Because I'm not saying that I don't think we've talked about it. I think therapy is great. I think people um I think one of the biggest tricks of the devil is to get you all by yourself and get you alone and in your thoughts and in your head, and you're convincing yourself of all these things you're not even sure how you're gonna get out of, if that makes sense. Um But do you think that that's a big thing with you know um spiritual with the spiritual therapy? You know what I mean.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

Yeah, like a good Christian therapist is gonna point you to the truth of God's word.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

It's like uh it feels like uh bumpers on a bowling alley, you know, it's because people can wonder, but also because I just think there's a lot of people in this world that struggle with it's like when you and they don't we don't mean to, but when we present Jesus in this way, I've heard that before, and you know, Jesus I've give I've given my life to Jesus and that didn't work. And so having somebody that can be like, hey, let's back to that thought of let's just put your shoes on. Let's put your shoes on first is really good. Uh what about you, Sean? Do you think the big life's biggest battles happen around us or inside us?

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Inside of us. I think our inside tends to make it uh everything seem bigger. It's funny because I'm listening to you guys and I'm putting I'm remembering certain situations in my life where I was like peak anxiety. High school. Um it was always the things that hadn't happened yet. You're just making assumptions it was always gonna be the worst. It was gonna be the worst. And when you get through it or you just battle it head on, it's never as bad as you thought it was gonna be. And to me, it's I think God's convicted me over the last decade or so that you know, worrying is just a lack of faith. Like all but we have an obligation to do what we can do. Try to try to try to do the right things, love people, and just live with the consequences. But you can get caught up in, and I'll do it even now, you know, I got a legal thing going on that's gonna get me started. But when I think about it, I get a thing, I get a pit in my stomach. Yeah. And it bothers me. Not really because of the legal thing or whatever's gonna happen. Um but I worry about the other person. You know, I'm like, man, I feel bad that like this other person thinks this way. Like that I I pray that the the the the the situation would um just just the heart of the of the people involved, um the law, different little spats, they're all uh technical, I guess, when you get down to right or wrong, but people are people, and it just hurts it hurts your heart that people have have worry or anxiety or they think they're gonna get some kind of victory out of something that's never gonna get given to them. And it's it's 99% in your mind. Uh things are gonna happen, bad stuff's gonna happen, trauma's gonna happen, tragedy's gonna happen if you live long enough. Uh we shouldn't be surprised by it. Yeah. But the other thing I thought when you said that about the storms is we got a really good friend, Chris, that uh his son, their house got struck by lightning a few months ago and like just blasted their house. Like sounded like sounded like a uh we were in the war. And uh since then, his son, who's 15, who's awesome, is scared to death of storms because it was rough. It took out all kinds of stuff in their house, scared them all to death. And now he he's real hesitant to even be anywhere. Well, it's gonna rain, dude. It's gonna rain like Tuesday, it's Monday. You you can go do this. Uh but it's funny that that can get in your head and play play tricks on you.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

But it's something that's happened, and some would consider that, you know, an anxiety that they have, but it's actually it's an it's a legitimate fear. So I think that you can approach that in different ways to work through it.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

Yeah, your brain's a prediction machine, and I've said that a lot. So your brain's job is to keep you safe. That's what your brain's job is. You know, oof, that's hot. So now you don't go over and touch that thing because it was hot. You've learned that, right? Well, his brain learned that lightning can strike a house and scare you. And so he goes into like a he could be going into like a fight or flight. Like, I've got to prepare myself for this danger that's coming.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

But I joke that the funny thing is, is his his resistance to that is well, I don't want to be out here in this area, you know, at this farm or whatever. I want to be back at my house. And I'm like, that's the place the lightning hit, and you're wanting to go back there. The flesh is not very smart, I gotta be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

That's a whole nother deal.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Our flesh will trick us. You know, you think it thinks it has an answer, but there's really no answer except the spiritual ones.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

What you just said uh sparked a question, and I would love for you to kind of speak to this, Phyllis. So um, when we talk about just living in your mind, there's so many different avenues that you can take where you just have overloaded yourself with thought processes, and you can't really, you feel almost like you're uh paralyzed. So on your side of things, you said something that really hit me because I do the same thing. I am now to the other side of things where, hey, I'm not mad about this lawsuit. I'm not well mad's a terrible word. I'm not worried about the lawsuit, I'm worried about the person. Still worry. So how do you how do you be okay with because it's still taking up brain space? It's still, and I'm not saying that we're not, you know, uh called to uh we're not called to worry, but we're not called to care about the people behind the veil of things that are going on or care about the things that are happening in our lives. I'm just saying you're still worrying about this and it's still taking up brain space for you. So how do you, for me, I guess the answer would be I try to do my best to lay it at the altar and pray, and that taking every thought captive, I I believe that the Lord um helps me get rid of something like that. But how do you manage or how do you kind of cope with I'm a just I'm worrying about this thing in general? It's I used to think this was only worry because it was a bad thing, but now I'm worried about the heart of somebody, so but it's still worry. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Are you asking him or I'm asking you? Okay, well, worry is an emotion, and God gave us anxiety. Like there's a reason, right? You want to be a little anxious sometimes. It makes you smart, you know, it causes you to use safety things like seatbelts and helmets and those kind of things. So you don't have to worry about knocking your, you know, we don't we go out and enjoy life, you know. We can go get on that four-wheeler and enjoy it, but we're gonna be smart and use our heads to save our heads, protect our heads.

SPEAKER_05 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

But I think when it comes to other people, to your point about like thinking about that other person or you said pray for that other person. I think it's important to remember that every person's fighting an unseen battle. We don't know what's going on going on in their head, and that and and like acknowledge the self-awareness that you have in a good way. Like, you know what? I'm I'm considering that other person. It can build empathy, you know, you can slow down, listen more, you know, just show kindness. Um, those are things that you can do with another person. And you may not have that opportunity with someone in a lawsuit. I guess you can't, I don't know. Is there like a gag order? I don't know, you can't talk to that other person. Yeah, but um, but you know, it He can't talk about it because he's in it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Like it's like his lawyers over here watching the podcast episode, like, don't say anything, Sean.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Well, legally, you really can't talk to the person once you both have attorney. But you can pray, like you said.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

But day-to-day stuff when you are interacting with somebody, maybe who's going through something, it it helps you to build empathy and just acknowledge the whole like I'm worried about him, I'm worried about him. No, I'm aware that this thing is going on in their lives, and because I'm aware of that, I'm gonna have empathy toward that person, and then I'm gonna pray for them. So, like, be kind to yourself instead of just being like, I can't worry, I can't worry, I can't worry. That doesn't work. That it doesn't work. You need to say, ah, I'm feeling anxious about this. Acknowledge it, be kind to yourself, and then you can move move on to do the things that you need to do.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Yeah, I will you gotta release it. I kind of did that in North Carolina for some reason when we were there last week. I had just out of nowhere. I started thinking about that, and then I was like, I I would reject this. Like, you know, God just help me put this aside. It did, like it immediately went aside. Yeah, almost like I slapped myself in the face. Yeah. Uh and I do think the more I think about like, and I this could be so off off, but to me, good biblical therapy is almost training your spirit to win over the flesh.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

And I think that, you know, it is a rocky theme song, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

And it's that bad. I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I I talk about drinking or doing you know drugs, which I don't do uh really anymore. Uh but you thanks for clarifying then.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Hold on. We're not gonna this is not a cliffhanger moment. Sean does not do he said I don't really do it anymore.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

I don't do drugs at all anymore. No, no, sir. But but I don't I really don't drink uh because like I said, I've I've said the analogy, my flesh and spirit, it's a close race. And and and beer alcohol gives the flesh a little bit of a boost, and I don't it don't need it. You know, it's tough. Yeah so but one scripture I wanted to bring up, and I was sure that's what I was looking for here. Jesus said in Luke 4, Luke 12 4, I tell you the truth, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that can do no more. So if we're not worried about someone that can kill your body, but after that can do no more, your soul safe, your your salvation safe, your eternity safe. That verse, I if I got a tattoo, that might be it. Because honestly, we worry about so many things. And he's just saying, Don't worry because all they can do is kill you. So anything that's worrying you, don't worry because all they can do is talk about you. Don't worry because all they can do is drag your name through the mud or tell lies about you or or um you know take things away from you or steal from you or rob you or hit you. But he's saying, look, all they can do is kill you. I mean, every doesn't everything else kind of fall beneath that, and it doesn't quite measure up to you know death. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:33

Some perspective taking for sure.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Yeah perspective, great.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah. And Satan wants to distract us. It's like the devil takes you in this, because I love I love when we talk about the uh creating paths in your brain. So the devil wants to distract you one thought at a time. So for me, I'm like, I can't, I it's so crazy to me how many times you think about this one thing, and then like you're like, no, no, no, I can't think about that. And so you can you've convinced yourself not to, and then this one thing leads to 25 different pathways next thing you know, it was the root of this one thing. So why is it that it's so much and I don't want to because I think we can always lean on flesh. I'm not saying that it's not valid, um, but why is it that it's so much harder to do the right thing than it is to do the wrong thing? And because and to me, I just think, well, because it's worth it, like nothing that's uh worth it is easy. Um but why is it so much easier to do the wrong thing than it is or to look at the wrong thing or to you know go down the wrong pathway in your brain, whatever it is, than it is to do the right thing. I know that we've talked about do you think it has a lot to do with the way that somebody's raised initially? Because I think that there are kids too that battle um that are pastors' kids, that when the wrong thought pops in their head, it's harder to fight that off than it is to do the good thing. So why do we think that is?

SPEAKER_04 21:09

I was looking for that scripture that the tongue twister scripture that Paul has.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

I do the things I don't want to do, and I, you know, and I don't do the things that I want to do.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

A lot of that let me let me find that scripture while y'all talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah, the red clay strays actually have a song about that. I thought you were just trying to change.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

We need to call the red those days. Can we just well that and can we use one of your songs for like the intro or something? Because you just love them and I love them now too.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

And they've got a song about the road A Moment of Truth, where it's like, Why why do I do all these things I shouldn't do? And why do I uh I uh fall when I feel like I'm getting close to you? And it's just a whole story about like why do I feel like I'm two steps forward, then one step back, or one step forward, two steps back. And it's it's it's right. It's the flesh is weak, man, and and uh it can bring us down. I think the The whole battle in life is just again how do you how do you examine every situation and try to try to seek God's spirit and truth in it? Even even the most minor conversations or interactions, it should matter. Because you don't know it may matter not to you, but it may be everything to that other person you're dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah. And just even about the minor interactions. I was actually having a conversation with my father-in-law this week, and this is taking it a whole new route. But um had lunch with him and he was just saying how yeah. It's he's like, I'm finally done with you. It was like breaking up with me kind of sort of thing. I'm like, but I'm married to your daughter. I don't know how this is gonna work. We're producing grandkids. Don't want to see you anymore. Sorry. Um but just the you never know what an interaction may bring, or you never know what's happening on the other side of the fence. You never know what fruit um that you're producing in the midst of something. Because he was just talking about how you know he got in some trouble and all these different things way back in the day before him and Carly's mom got married. And she was it was basically one of those things where he was like, She should have left me. Like she shouldn't have, you know, been with me at all, all these different things. And he was sitting in a basketball time, um, and she walks into the gym, and every you know, he, you know, everybody knew whatever happened, and she just sat right next to him, and in that moment she chose him. And it was cool because now looking back on it in that moment, the decision that she made, she never knew that because of that, you know, we would all be thinking about planting a church. We'd all be thinking about doing all these different things. And that was birth because of this decision to stay, and then she had Carly, and Carly can you know, basically is the only reason that I feel like I'm it's Carly and Jesus is the only reason I'm not in jail now. Um, but it's just crazy the interactions that you have, you never know what's gonna come out of that. And I just encourage anybody that's listening to recognize that that even if you're hurting and broken in the midst of something, it's and when you're actively walking through it or you're actively walking through a battle in your mind, it doesn't mean you can't help somebody else because they're gonna take that and what they take away from it. Maybe you're going through it because you're supposed to grab somebody else's hand and walk with them.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

Again, it builds empathy.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

You you know it, you're not just feeling sorry for them, you're feeling sorry with them. Yeah, you know, and that's a different when difference when you can feel what somebody else is feeling. Yeah. I found that scriptures in Romans. Um So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me, for I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is my flesh, for I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out, for I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. And then it keeps on with a tongue twister. Now, if I what I do not want is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So in the end he says, Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin, and he talks about from there there's life in the spirit and future glory. So that's why we're just battling our flesh, you know, we're battling what our flesh wants. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Do you think we just do you think we just give ourselves too hard of a time?

SPEAKER_04 25:12

We are not kind, you know. Um it was a therapist that I had once who said this. So you know, I'm always gonna bring it back to that. I don't know. But he was talking about how we look at that scripture. What is it? Um, to love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly. Yeah. That's that's my favorite verse in the Bible. It was a favorite verse in the Bible before he said this, but we think about due justice, like what does that mean to you when you hear do justice?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Throw me in jail. That's what I think about justice.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

Okay, treat everybody fairly, treat everybody fairly, okay. With with empathy of understanding their situation.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

So treat everybody fairly with empathy for their situation. Does it say do justice only to other people? It just says to do justice. So so should we do justice to ourselves and treat ourselves with empathy and empathy and fairness and kindness? I repeat that scripture to myself all the time, like, wait a minute. And it's not just even like being kind to yourself, because we should be kind to ourselves. We need to speak over us what the Bible says about us. If God says you're fully loved and chosen and known, why are we saying the opposite about who God says we are? We're trying to tell ourselves something different, but doing justice also is like when you're setting a boundary, like a healthy boundary, not this weird toxic stuff that people are coming up with now. Like you made me uncomfortable, you're so toxic, I'm gonna cut you off. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like I need to actually set this healthy boundary for myself. That's doing justice for yourself. So when you ask that question, like why how do we treat ourselves or how do we talk to ourselves? Well, that's how we need to be empathetic with ourselves, but it's not like a a weird thought. Like, why would we be arguing with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords about who he says we are? We're like, no, no, not really. Not mercy and justice and stuff for us. You know, I'm not loved and chosen. Yeah, I'm a terrible person. Why do I keep thinking like that? Yeah, we're battling the flesh.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

That's so, so good of do justice. Like you're literally, you're telling yourself that. Because it just it's maybe makes me think about in Psalms when David says, Praise the Lord, I tell myself. Like it's not, you know, he's because I when people ask me, they're like, Well, how do I just go convince myself to do this? I'm like, Well, and like praise the Lord, I tell myself. David had to literally tell him. That's exactly right. Praise the Lord. That's why I walk around and everybody will tell you, God, he says it too much. I mean, praise him, praise the Lord, because it's like that's my reminder in every scenario to praise Jesus. And I am that is such a good thought because so many people, and I think even um therapists, pastors, um, people in high-level leadership positions, no matter what it may be, that are doing that are actually building others up that they are battling and they're not talking to anybody about it. That's the worst part. Not a lot of, I mean, what would percentage would you say of therapists have therapists?

SPEAKER_04 28:10

Most of us are in and out of therapy just as a just as a manner of caring for ourselves. Um, also, it's an ethical mandate. So we don't want to be um impaired. Um, there's more to, you know, when I was in nursing, in like an impaired nurse, you think of like maybe they're using alcohol or drugs or something on the job or whatever, they're impaired. Or maybe they're, you know, a doctor in residency is super sleep deprived. He could be impaired. Um, but in therapy, you could be impaired if you're not taking care of yourself and attending to yourself while you are walking with people who are going through. So self-care and speaking the truth over yourselves, it's not just a positive thinking and oh, I don't need all of that. Yeah, you do. We do need to, you know, when a when a like he goes out on his property and mows and fishes on that little spot of property he has, that's a form of self-care.

SPEAKER_05 29:02

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

It doesn't have to be something weird, but but saying the truth about yourself is not just positive thinking. Yeah. Now, some people think a positive affirmation is I am brave, I am smart, I am kind, and they can keep it at that, but the Bible says to be kind. You know, it's a fruit of the spirit. Yeah. You know, but when we say things that are scripturally based, you know, about who Christ says we are, that's not just positive thinking. That is training our brains, feeding our spirits the truth of God's word about who we are.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

And I think that the the um obviously the battle in your mind comes from everything that gets filtered in your brain is the things that you're seeing and the things that you're hearing. And so I think about the life and death found in the power of the tongue, that we there's so many of us that behind the scenes we speak, we're just speaking death over ourselves. And um, you know, you're giving yourself a hard time, you're not letting yourself I don't know. It it's really hard, especially when you're helping others on a consistent basis. Because I know how it was for me as a pastor, like you go and you you know, helping somebody with their marriage, or what let's just say you come out of how like there's been time where I've met with a couple and then I go home and my wife and I, you know, have an intense fellowship. And whatever, but seriously. I'm just like we're having that conversation in the midst of that. I'm feeling like Chandler, you're a piece of crap, man. You just told this, you just told this couple to do the complete opposite. Now you're over here reacting in a way that you shouldn't react because what you spilled some water on the floor and then you got mad, so then your wife comes around the corner and asks you what's wrong. She asks you what's wrong in the wrong way, and you just blow up. And it's like, I just told this couple that exact story of, hey, you know what would really help. And it's obviously from my own personal experience, but it just and I'm speaking death, whether I'm saying it out loud or not, I am speaking death over myself. And I just feel like there's a place where, man, I just wish we could establish something for, and I know that there are things established, but if you're a leader out there in a high-level position, pastor, therapist, whatever it is, and you're helping people walk a road that you feel like sometimes you fall on or trip on, um, you need to talk to somebody. Like you need to, you need to process with somebody, have somebody in your life that you're um and making sure you're speaking life, the simplest little things.

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Jesus doing things that are like Jesus loves me. I made after I got out of school, and that's such a good point. I actually wrote down the things that I believe that I would like to do or already do that are life-giving, that to take care of myself in a healthy way. And so I I made it on Canva, like a really cool thing, and framed it, and it just sits on my desk. And it's a whole, it's a two-column list of things that I'm like, I it's just go-to's. Sit on your desk and be like, okay, what's some I'm I'm feeling this some kind of way right now. What can I do right now? Because depending on where you are, you got to have the right tools, and it's like a carpenter, right? If you if he just walked around with a hammer, he would not be able to get very much done. Yeah. So, like, fill your tool belt with lots of different tools. Something, if you need to use something to relax or cope with life at Walmart, you may need one thing. Maybe it's working out for some people. Well, you may not be able to get up, you know, or go start lifting weights in the middle of Walmart or at church, right? So you got to have different things that you can do in different places. So have lots of tools in your tool belt. So I I made a list. All you have to do is make a list. Like, what are some and be creative? Like, what are some things that I like to do that I know work to help me relax and cope with daily life? And then what are some things I'd like to explore? I have a 101 coping skills that I introduce all my new clients to with the like usually the first or second visit. Like, look through here, and it's like gaze at the sc at the stars. Well, you can do that during the at night. That's great. Well, what can you do during the day? You know, and almost all of them say that they like to scroll shorts.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

You're just out there when you're that's not helpful.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

That's not helpful at all.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

No, uh, what's your code mechanism? Scrolling, doom scrolling. It's crazy though, than that. My brain just feels so when I'm done. It's wild how that actually affects your thought process and your the way that you really process anything else that's in front of you for the next 10-15 minutes. It's your brain crashes. I was scrolling the other day, and my daughter, she's two and a half, she's jumping on the couch couch next to me.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Daddy!

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Daddy!

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Oh, that breaks my heart.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Broke my heart. Haven't done it since. She said, Daddy, look at me. And I'm like, Oh, dude, I will cry right now thinking about it because I was like, Good for you for noticing that she's seeking attachment, and you're so she's saying, but she's saying what I'm attached to, so I don't want her to think that I want to be attached to that too. So then they and then, like two days later, she comes out and she puts her something up to her ear and she says, I'm on my phone. And she goes, she looks at me and I said something, she goes, Daddy, I'm on my phone. I'm like, Okay. I did. I pulled her aside whether she understood it or not. I said, Hey, baby, Gloria, I just need you to know that daddy's sorry. Will you forgive, Daddy? Because like, I will never choose this over you. I need you to know that I love you and you come first, and I'm so sorry. Okay, Daddy. And she ran away. And I don't know if she you know, it helped me feel better.

SPEAKER_04 34:18

Oh, they she how she's doing it. She absolutely got that. Now I know we the remember how that makes me feel better too. How how early on does a kid figure out something's hot?

SPEAKER_05 34:29

Real early.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Very early, right? And are they thinking about that consciously? Like this thing is hot, I do not touch this thing. No, so when you connected with her like that, she got that. Now she may not be able to remember that conversation, but she heard your tone of voice, she saw you looking in her eye. She she attachment starts well immediately. So, and that keeps going on, and those first three years are critical. So, no, she got it.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

That makes me feel better. When you're out there doing your work of your, you know, she said it's therapy for you when you're out there to turn your brain off. Are you just out at the land just screaming and just mad at the world? You're just throwing chainsaws everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Just come on, baby. No, the hot quite the opposite. I love it out there. My wife calls it my mistress of that acreage. It's not hell, you know, it's not good. She's like, Oh, you're going to see your girlfriend.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

She kind of gets frustrated a little bit. To be fair, because she they're they're best buds, they're like Tony and me. They're best friends. And so she's like, My best friend's just hanging out doing something else. But yeah, sorry, I interrupted your story. Talk about how awesome the land is.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

You're right. I don't and I just I do uh I think for me to go out and just mow grass or cut down limbs or walk around and figure things out, I just love it. I and and her and I had this discussion on the way over about uh I got a family member, a kid that's struggling with mental health, and and and this screen thing and this uh this these glowing rectangles, uh I'm telling you, they're killing they're killing a lot of relationships, a lot of marriages, kids, families. It's out of control. And she was talking a lot about how healthy it is for a young boy to just be out in the woods doing something, learning something, you know, and and and it's funny because your your dad wasn't as known as the man of the woods or what uh you know, that was his thing. Uh but there's something to that. God made us to be out hunting and working.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Working we are meant to work, and and kids are just staying inside and they're on their screens, and they're not even making, first of all, real face-to-face connections with people, but let alone like think about all of time up until recently, people had to work to get a bite of food in their mouth.

SPEAKER_05 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

And now it's just like open up the package and you know, eat a chip that also usually isn't good for you.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Food shows up at the door.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

I think that um this is just my personal opinion. I don't have I don't have any basis to stand on. So tell me if I'm wrong. Cool, throw it out there. Cool. I love doing it. That's obviously my conviction. This is my conviction. I uh I know that for myself personally, when I because my brain runs a million miles an hour all the time. I think, and my wife will tell you, um sometimes I don't think about anything, but and I am jealous of that. But I do believe that all of us live in our heads and our brains are constantly running, we're constantly evaluating things, all this different stuff. But when we put our hands to the plow, if you will, and we're doing work and we're doing these things, there is something therapeutic about that, that you're everything just turns off and you're focused on this one thing right here, not thinking about anything else, and you're just working. And to me, you're 100% correct. Everybody needs that. It's not just this personality type, men, women. It's everybody at some point needs this thing where you're just putting your hand to the plow and you're going. And I think that's part of what the devil's trying to do is break us from something like that, because it brings so much inner peace. It brings so much, it's just the work ethic in general. I think that's the kicker, is he's just trying to break the work ethic in general because what you said was very true of we used to have to work to put food in our mouths. Like you have to work to get, you have to work to provide. And so if you're not working to provide, it just breaks that entire work ethic in general. And so work's not really work, and it just kind of is what it is, and you become this I don't know, uh, you think you're satisfied, but this comfortable human being where the work just kind of I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

I don't, you know, and and that's what's in the identity, right? Like when you work and you get like Joel right now is doing wildlife management, right? And I'm like, I don't know if that's a career path that you would just choose to do, but he is thriving. He's got the glasses that record as he goes, and he is catching animals, and um, and and it's it's where my dad would call it the yuppies are. So he's in St. Louis and he's in a really nice area, more affluent area. Um, this is a this is literally like is he at the zoo or anything? He's always rabbit hole. No, he's in the community. Oh, that's cool. He works for a pest control company, a critter catcher. He's a critter catcher. So somebody paid him 250 bucks to go get a dead squirrel off of a low-hanging limb that didn't require a ladder. But he also catches live animals. And this is the point that I'm trying to make. You would think, okay, like that's that job, but he has a sense of accomplishment. He loves what he's doing, he's outside, he's working, he's learning how to trap, he's learning how to do all these cool things. And his identity is that. Well, when a person is just like a young person or any person, but imagine a young person whose brain's still forming, they're just in their house, not doing any work, they're on social media, they're on their computers, they're gaming. Not that that's wrong necessarily, but you don't want a steady diet of it, especially if that's what's shaping your identity.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:52

You know, back in the day when like you would pass on to your son your skill, like carpentry, building things, and right now it's A V stuff, and you've got your sons working here, and you're passing on a skill from generation to generation, that's a part of their identity. They're like, I'm part of Blades A V. That's that's building up who they are, and they are learning a skill. We've got kids who don't know how to do basic stuff, you know, like get something out of a box and put it together with a, you know, just basic stuff.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

Ikea will put them into wacky home. I mean, you can't finish something there. My my son, it's funny you say that because I didn't know in nothing.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Just before you move on, IKEA, I will always pay them to put their stuff together moving forward because it is a million pieces, but continue, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

Real men would put it together themselves.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

No, nothing.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

We're punching a whole linear man card and a man to put together and pull that thing out there and I love it. Uh I love doing it. Do you read directions? I on IKEA stuff I will.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

On IKEA stuff I will.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

I don't like to read directions. On most things I will, but I'll also this is where my wife and I differ. I'm getting not even nowhere. I was going to lose my first time. My woman likes to build the furniture. Yeah. Like when she'll buy little stupid stuff. The cats need their 14th you know cabinet.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Uh baby disinfect my chair that y'all were spitting in. Nope. That was nice new.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

That was gross. But she'll she'll she'll just do it like right in the middle of the living room. And she'll be on the carpet and it's stuff. I'll get a table, I'll get a working height, I'll lay out my hardware, I'll I mean I'll get a drill, she'll not she won't use a drill, she'll use a screwdriver. So like when we build furniture, like we have to build something, either I build it or she builds it. We don't do it together. Because it's a fight waiting to happen. Because her way is like no makes no sense, and it's the hard way.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Your way makes no sense. There's no way.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

I'll build it and I'll just take it out to my barn where I got tables, I got tools, and I'll build it. I'll bring it and she, oh, you got it done. I'm like, Yeah, of course I got it done. I'm a man. But when I started, when I started in this field and at 18 years old, uh I didn't know how to I didn't know what a drill was. I didn't know how to put a bit in a drill, but it I didn't know anything. And and I didn't have a dad, I didn't have all this stuff to learn. I learned nothing. And I didn't have work ethic. I I didn't our screen time I had a Commodore 64, and I'd sit in front of it for 12 hours at a time. So I was that kid, but once once I remember being in I think it was Kalamazoo, Michigan, of all places. The company I worked for did church sound systems all over the country, but mostly Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, this in this area. And I remember being up doing a what we call a punch block where all the stuff from the mixing console comes up and all the stuff from the stage comes up. We have punch blocks, we basically connect it all, punch it down. And I remember I soldered the stage, I did the punch block, then I went back and did what we called the fan out at the mixer. That was the one job where I finally realized I understand this stuff. Like that was like two years into this field, and I understood how it all worked.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

I'm good at something.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

Yeah, and I did, and I was like, and the and the head salesman there, his name was Bill. Uh, he even said, he goes, he told my boss at the time, he goes, hey, Sean's really starting to pick this thing up. I mean, I I I was on cloud nine. Like from that moment on is when I knew this was my career. Because at the time I just it was just a job, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Uh and but like I think about all three of my sons, they could go hang a flat panel and fish the wall, and they could do all of that now. And I don't remember like taking a bunch of time, but if I'm doing something, I would show them how and they would jump in. But uh that's nice. I mean, you should be able to fix some stuff, you should be able to do a break job, you should be able to mow grass or fix minor things. YouTube is my dad. I mean, I get on YouTube and and you can find anything you want. You say YouTube's my dad. YouTube's my dad. It's it's that's where he's learning. That's where you learn.

SPEAKER_04 43:38

That's why chores are so good for kids.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

It is.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

Chores are good. It's not because of any other reason, like you just want their room to be clean. No, chores are good because they can accomplish something and feel proud of themselves and say, I can do hard things. If I can clean up my room, if I can learn how to use a washing machine, what else can I learn how to do? Wow, I'm good at this.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Right. And you're gonna produce really good people. Your dad was uh uh For me, when I was in my early 40s probably, I'd watch his videos and learn how to make rice or how to make pecan preens or he'd talk about coffee and probably some other stuff.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

But and that's good to point out because some some viewers or listeners may be like, Well, I live in an apartment in the city, I'm gonna be like the ones who call Joel to come get a squirrel off of them. But it doesn't have to be fixing something or mowing something. It can be any skill, gardening, house stuff. It it doesn't have to be anything like building, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

That's good. Yeah. I think too, like just a caveat as we close. Is that the word right word? Caveat?

SPEAKER_04 44:39

You're offering a little nugget? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

It's probably not even close.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

A little extra perspective on something.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Let's regenerate to the finish. Just throw words out there. Yeah, I feel like you're on Zach's front porch again, just throwing out big words.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Come on, somebody. Um but I do think that, and we can hit on this another day, but like having an identity, um, having something that you know you're good at, that takes a lot of weight out for your brain, too. Like having something where you're like, no, no, no matter what, like I'm really good at this.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

You're adding value.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

You're adding value to yourself. And obviously, that's why we would encourage everybody to find your identity in the Lord, because when your identity is found in Jesus, nothing else can tear you apart. Your, you know, business could go awry, your all these different things in your life could go bad. I mean, your battery could stop working in your car, you run out of gas, ain't all four tires are flat at the same time. It all happens at the same time, and you're just like, praise Jesus, I tell myself. Um, when your identity is found in the Lord, a lot of the times um the things in your brain that you're struggling with um, you know, just kind of disappear. So I want to encourage everybody as we close this episode of the Conviction Exchange, just like we talked about at the beginning, I just want to encourage you to just walk. Just, you know, take the because I think a lot of times to let ourselves maybe stop thinking so much for me. I I think about it, and me and my wife, we take walks, and I think about that and just turns my brain off, and it just allows us to be out. I just want to encourage you to be out with God. Take a walk with Jesus and just let him guide every single step, every single thing that you're going through, and stop worrying so much. It's easier said than done. I understand that. Um, but I just want to encourage everybody to take that next step with the Lord today, and that is our exchange for the week. But before we step out, let's go ahead and pray. Jesus, thank you for how amazing you are. Lord God, it's such an honor and a privilege to get the opportunity to sit here and base our conversations around you, all the convictions that we may have, Lord Jesus. Um, we just thank you that our identity is found in you. I pray healing over anybody's mind that may be struggling today, that's listening uh to the podcast. And I just pray that um they take every thought captive and make it obedient to you. We love you, Lord, and understand that you are the name above every other name. Thank you, Jesus, for everything. And it's in your heavenly name we pray. And everybody said, Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Conviction Exchange. Do us a huge favor if you liked the episode. If you like the podcast, give us a five-star review, share the episode, share the podcast with all of your friends, and subscribe on YouTube, all the different places that you can listen to podcasts. It should be everywhere. So I am Chandler. I'm Sean.

SPEAKER_04 47:27

And I'm Phyllis.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Hey, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Conviction.