The Conviction Exchange
Conviction. Not everybody has one. But everybody does have an opinion — so let’s talk about them. Let’s talk about real world problems, real life scenarios and hear real stories about how a conviction for Jesus can make a lot of the things we walk through a little easier to deal with. The goal for the Conviction exchange podcast is to laugh together, challenge each other, grow together…but mostly laugh together. We’re funny — at least we think we are.
Our conviction is this: Jesus is the answer, — and we just want to talk about it with people.
The Conviction Exchange
The Problem Isn't Political, It's Spiritual
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Episode 5 - Everyone has an opinion about what's wrong with the world, but what if we're trying to solve the wrong problem? In this episode of The Conviction Exchange, we dive into why Jesus pointed to the human heart—not politics, culture, technology, or the economy—as the root of the world's greatest crisis. Together, we explore how our hearts, minds, and identities are shaped, the dangers of chasing influence and affirmation, and why true transformation begins with a deeper relationship with Christ. If you've ever wondered why the world's solutions seem temporary, this conversation will challenge you to look beyond the headlines and examine what truly has your heart.
To learn more about Phyllis Robertson Thomas, and her book I Never Knew, visit www.ineverknewbook.com.
Thanks for listening to The Conviction Exchange.
So the conviction exchange, and we got a big announcement here. We we got somebody probably looking at a conviction here. We found out yesterday uh Phyllis is um wanted. I think there's a warrant, maybe. Money St. Louis court. She parked in a non-parking zone, and they're making her go to court, guys. Really?
SPEAKER_01So there's all kinds of things here to unpack. So first of all, I'm a delight. No, first of all, I was not driving the car. We went to St. Charles, Missouri, and we are not used to city.
SPEAKER_03These aren't my pants.
SPEAKER_01And we're not used to like having to be mindful of where you park. Like you could just park in friendly neighborhoods. Well, apparently that is not the case. So Tony was driving, Tony parked, and we came back out of the event that we were at, and there was a ticket on our car. And so I'm like really frustrated. I'm like, this is not right. Like you're in a no-parking zone. And so we look around, I'm like, there actually is a sign that says no parking at certain hours, which we would have never paid attention to.
SPEAKER_00And so that's your argument in court right there.
SPEAKER_01Well, exactly. And then so we got this ticket and it's in my name. Like Tony was driving. This is not me.
SPEAKER_00Is the car registered to you though?
SPEAKER_01It's registered me and him, but I was listed first. So the officer just put it in my name. So everything was fine. I'm like, okay, fine. It's fine. It's okay. I'm gonna go on. I'll pay the ticket. It wouldn't let me do it. One thing leads to another. I'm on the phone with like the courthouse people, and she's like, you have to appear before the judge. And I lost it. I lost it. I was not not with her. I was I was very frustrated with her. But when I got off the phone, I was so upset, crying, angry, anxious, all the feels. Kindle was there, she can attest to it. And I'm like, I'm not pleading guilty because I am not guilty. I'm gonna fight this. I'm not, and I'm like, I'm not getting a lawyer. I can't afford a lawyer. So I was like, I'm gonna get and I'm gonna research all the case law. And Tony's like, Phyllis, he's so worried now because he knows me. He's like, Phyllis, this is not law and order. I'm like, oh, but I've watched a lot of I know exactly I'm like not guilty, Your Honor. Yeah. Well, just before we started this podcast, Tony sent me a text and say he said, Um, I've called him and I can go in your place. So you don't have to go, I go. And the ticket's gonna be from zero dollars to a thousand dollars. So in St. Charles County, Missouri, they will ticket you for parking in the wrong spot. And you can't just go pay your ticket online like a normal person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you have to go to court. Why do you think that is not the going to court park, but like the hey, here's what it can range from? Like, how can I park in a spot that I can't park in any differently? Yeah, you know what I mean? That's a good question. If you park too far away from the curb, that might be an extra two to three hundred dollars.
SPEAKER_01I think it's dynamic pricing. Oh they're doing that. I mean, I really don't know that for a fact, but like, you know, now you go to Walmart on a certain day, you could be standing there, and if it just came from like early Sunday morning to Sunday after church, and where people are shopping, they'll flip the price tag on you, is what I'm hearing. So dynamic pricing.
SPEAKER_03That's sounds like internet stuff there.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like you're under a spiritual attack because the devil knows the devil knows that you are on a tear right now and he's just trying to get you all. The devil's a liar.
SPEAKER_03No, I'm gonna spiritualize everything with a parking ticket.
SPEAKER_00Listen, the world's biggest problem isn't political, it's spiritual. Come on, somebody, and we're right back on track in Jesus' name. That is amazing. Wow.
SPEAKER_03Taylor just reeled it all in right there.
SPEAKER_00The world's biggest problem isn't political, it's spiritual. But I do believe that people want to people always want somebody to blame. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Like Yes, I do in this case because I feel like the laws need to be changed. Why are they making people appear before a judge? That's a waste of taxpayer money. But the problem in the world is not political, it's spiritual.
SPEAKER_00It's spiritual. Because I I do I do think though that, you know, are there some dumb things that politicians say, politicians make stupid remarks, all the different stuff. Yes, everybody makes mistakes, people are dumb. But so many people just want to find somebody to blame because their heart isn't right. It's like, look, look at this guy. It's almost like, uh, you know, well, maybe that's a terrible analogy, but it's don't look at me, don't look at me because I got all these problems. Look at all the the reason that everything in my life sucks is because this is our president. It's like, well, here's the thing, you know, it's back to the what we talked about in the last episode. Why don't we just start with cleaning up issues? You know what I mean? Just the little things. Why don't we just start with cleaning up this one thing? And I think the issue has a lot to do with our hearts. Um, if we would just let, you know, I know that we talk so much about the spiritual side of things on this podcast, but I'm telling you, it is just such a conviction of mine that if we would just let the Lord in a hundred percent and let him have all of our hearts, our thought process, our feelings towards other people would shift from anger to, you know what? I'm gonna pray for them. Like that's what shit let's get back on that, because that's what shifted my entire, you know. I've walked through, just to be honest, I've walked through a lot of hurt in the last six months, and I'm recognizing that. At first I would tell you, I'm not hurt, you know, I'm a man, I don't get hurt.
SPEAKER_03I've watched the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're looking at me and you're like, yeah. But I did, I got hurt, and but once I started laying those issues, those people, whatever it is, um, at the altar, it's because you're 100% correct, like you were talking about, it things really do start to shift. The Lord takes a weight off of you, and I think that's what he meant when he was like, My burden on him, he cares for you.
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean? Yeah, we carry things that we were not meant to carry, yeah. A burden that that we are not equipped to bear.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And so, what does that actually mean? We to actually give everything to God, it means that we have to be okay with the different outcomes. We have to be okay with who's the president, who's not the president, with who's this mayor, who's that mayor, who's, you know, how much money I'm making, how much money I'm not making, because there's so many different lessons that we can learn in the midst of all these different things. Um, and I do wonder why do you guys think I this is I'm actually looking for a response here because I'm curious. It never happens, okay, as we continue to talk about politics. Why do people think or even believe anybody that says, I am the president that's gonna change the world? Like, I'm gonna be the one that does it. I'm the one. Like, why does everybody are we gonna get into this? Like, why does everybody fall for the same old thing? It's like, these are all the things I'm gonna do, and they do one out of the 10 things they say they're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01Delusional optimism.
SPEAKER_00That's the new word.
SPEAKER_03That is, that's the new phrase.
SPEAKER_00That's the title of the episode.
SPEAKER_03Delusional optimism. I like it. Like it sounds like Chandler on the first T every time we get out ready to get off. I'm gonna shoot a 70. And he goes out in the club championship and drops a 92 and loses by that's embarrassing. But he got the minister to a fella.
SPEAKER_00But that I did. But that's the thing, is it that is actual delusional optimism because I do legitimately believe that I'm gonna shoot even better.
SPEAKER_01I'm married to a man and I've told him, so I'm not talking about him behind his back. But he he does suffer or have the joy of living with, depending on how you look at it, that's delusional optimism.
SPEAKER_00The joy of living with. I like to do it. See, the optimist in the room. Because I am that way. It's the joy of living with delusion. It makes my life better.
SPEAKER_01I know I like to think in terms of living the right way, my way, that uh we look at things realistically.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh. That's the truth. But but it's it's you're you're right as far as uh what was the title of the thing? Why do we the the world the it's not a political problem, it's a spiritual problem.
SPEAKER_00Uh the world's biggest problem isn't political, it's spiritual problem.
SPEAKER_03Amen to that. And it's that's so true because and I'll tell you this in our lifetimes, the last the last, I would say right around Clinton. Um Bush, there was the the the end of George Bush the f the first. Things were Reagan, then Bush, it was okay. And then I feel like when Clinton came in, that's when the Rush Limbaugh thing, he came off the uh out of the scene, you know. And that's when I felt like just the it was just it was the same old political rhetoric that we've always had in this country. You go back and read the newspapers from the 1700s, early 1800s, it was awful some of the stuff they would say about people and their political adversaries. But I feel like around that time with Clinton and some of the stuff he did, um, and Rush Limbaugh being amplified, I think the partisanship was really amplified more, and it's just gotten so much worse over over the years. Uh, we were talking about on the way home again yesterday about how uh 9-11, man, the there was just a coming together of America that was unbelievable for a minute.
SPEAKER_01Like what we're seeing right now with the 250th anniversary, and you just see so much patriotism and the way all the like the soccer, the you know, soccer players that are coming in from other countries are just they even they are appreciating the United States and kind of pushing back a little bit on all the things that they hear, that narrative that's not true. Yeah, you know, they're like actually they're really nice people, and their biscuits and gravy are good too.
SPEAKER_00That's good. That's a good point. I he said the biscuits and gravy.
SPEAKER_01Um, I love biscuits and gravy. He makes a great sausage gravy, and I make great biscuits.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she didn't like my canned biscuits, but so is this also an exclusive club uh that I'm because I'm not a part of the Wortle Club. I was told, you know, did you know the first time we had you on, it was like, no, that's it. Don't bring that up again, it's over. Sorry. Yeah. Anyways, can I be in the B's and G's club? I would really like to be in the B.
SPEAKER_03What's your hash brown game?
SPEAKER_00Uh here's the thing. I used to be a chef. I'll just throw that out there, you know, so I can cook food.
SPEAKER_03Um you could throw down some hash browns with her biscuits and my gravy. We may have something cooking here. Let's move on. So political versus uh glad we got that covered. If we don't cover anything else, um we should do that tomorrow morning.
SPEAKER_00What? The B's and G's? Yeah. Nothing else? Cool. So we're done. Cool. So thanks so much for never mind.
SPEAKER_03I'm just but the uh political. Uh everybody's always looked for the politicians for all the answers. Um man, it just ain't gonna happen. Uh I actually just watched a video from your dad the other day that was I I don't know if somebody asked him a question about what the government has done for him, and and he was just kind of him-hawing around. He goes, Let me think. I can't really tell you anything that the government's done for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But honestly, the thing Except for made me pay taxes, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they do that. But honestly, they protect us with the military. They, you know, those types of things is what they were formed for. That's exactly right. But it's it has become over overreaching. And uh carry on. I'm gonna call.
SPEAKER_00I just think everybody always wants the next best thing. Everybody always is looking for this, like the world's world is obsessed. We're so obsessed with changing systems. We have so many ideas, people, that I feel like nothing ever actually gets implemented. And the only thing we need to really implement is maybe we should just like bring prayer back into schools.
SPEAKER_01Well, if you're not trusting God for things. Yeah. Sorry, you didn't mean to open that game. Yeah, no, that's good though.
SPEAKER_00But if you're not trusting back into home, yeah, start there.
SPEAKER_01If we're not trusting God with things, then you've got to trust somebody, right? I mean, if you're worldly or an unbeliever, then what else have you got? You know, you already think that when you die, it's over. There's nothing else after that. What a hopeless way to live. And so the best you might have is sorry, I have trash on here. The best you might have is to like at least put hope in a person that might make your life a little more livable here on earth, because when you die, it's over. Like imagine.
SPEAKER_00But there the people that's true. The people that put like, so let's just go with some, like, let's go down that road. Somebody is putting their entire hope in, you know, because I know some people who are obsessed with the government and obsessed with bashing Trump and obsessed with doesn't matter, really or supporting him, either way. It doesn't matter who the president is in general. You've got this group of people that are I'm gonna bash or I'm gonna support, and I'm just gonna be involved. And that's their identity is just getting mad. And you would think that their hope is in the president or their hope is in the government, but in all reality, they're just mad at every single decision that's made. So the people that are super passionate about it and already are they're just people are just angry, people are mad, but it's because we're literally you're a hundred percent correct, we're relying on people to do a job maybe that only the Lord can do.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and I'll take it back to some counseling. Imagine. Well, here's the thing people are truly suffering, right? There are people who really don't have what they need, the the finances or access to healthcare. There and and people would disagree with me, but there are people who struggle with that. Like the very poor have Medicaid, but they're even limited to what providers will accept it. Try to get a dental appointment on Medicaid, it's hard, it's not easy. But then you've got the middle class where they may, maybe they have insurance, but they're self-employed. It's hard to get insurance and pay for it when you're self-employed, so or a small business. So they may not even have the money to actually pay for the doctor, and they're the ones paying the load of taxes. Yeah. So, you know, if you're very, very wealthy, you can get the very best health care in the world, literally. You can go wherever the best person is to provide that health care. So when you've got people who really truly are not, they're in a bad neighborhood community, they don't get the best education when public education is their best bet and it's not great. When they can't access healthcare. When and I'm not saying any of these things is necessarily a right. I don't think we're here to debate that today. But I mean, I kind of think healthcare is a right. Like, I don't know. Uh again, opening that can of worms, but nonetheless, they'll take care of you, you'll just get a bill for 20 grand. Right. Yeah. Right. But these people really can become desperate. Yeah. And I mean, I've been one. I'm hopeful, like, gosh, this guy says he's gonna make this change. And what if he really will? What if he really cares about the little guy? So you want to vote for him and you want to put your hope in that. But at the end of the day, people are people and they'll they'll let you know.
SPEAKER_00It's this weird um merry-go-round sort of analogy because it's like the same people that are mad are relying on the system that supports them because they're getting the, you know, um the support, whatever, food stamp, all these different things. There are people that can't afford health care, they're on the Medicaid, they have all these different things that the government is supporting them on. And so they truly are relying on somebody to live a physical life, not a spiritual life. But all of their anxiety, all their every move they make is dependent on what it is that the government's willing to do for them.
SPEAKER_01Imagine if they saw Jesus like they saw the government. And everything, all my needs are met through my through Jesus Christ. Mic drop.
SPEAKER_00Just saying. We just we just saw the world higher. No, but uh you we did though. That's what and not we but you know what I mean? It's as simple. I just wish because I say this all the time, just give Jesus 30 days and he will shift your entire perspective if you just spend time with him. Because we this is the living word. It will speak to you, it will speak to your scenario, whether it's just a you know, uh uh 52-week Bible reading plan or whatever it is, you're reading things in chronological or it doesn't matter. The Lord will find a way, because he always does, to speak his word into your heart, and it will completely shift your scenario and he will give you everything you need. And it just that's where my passion comes from, that's where my hurt comes from for other people because I'm just like, guys, we're so reliant on this system that's broken, and even if it wasn't broken, it's people. People hurt people. We're all messed up, and we only serve there's only one God that defeated sin and death, and one God who completely forgave everything that you walk through and will continue to walk through. And I just man, it's I think it's fired up about it.
SPEAKER_01It's idolatry because if you're put it, you can elevate the government as your source and it be a God to you, you can elevate your job where you do get your money, and then that can be your God, your idol, your work, because you're able because someone would say, Oh, I don't rely on the government. Well, how much are you working? How much time are you spending working? How much time away from your faith and away from your family are you working? So, I mean, work is great, and and social programs are needed too. Again, two things can be true. These things can be great, but anytime you elevate another source for what Jesus is supposed to give you, you've made it an idol.
SPEAKER_03Amen. And I think uh you touched on it, Chandler, as is you know, hurt people, hurt people. That's an old saying. I got news for you. Everyone's hurt. Like everyone's hurt somewhere. Carrying it. So so don't be surprised when people let you down. Don't be surprised when your your government are just people, and they're gonna let you down. And I I you know, it is as polarized as ever right now with with uh Trump. And you know, America's great. America is a great idea and it's a great country, and it really has nothing to do with Donald Trump. It really don't. Uh, and I'm not, I mean, I'm a conservative guy, but it's America's great because we have religious liberty. We have the ability to be Christ's followers or be Muslim or be Hindu or be atheist and do that freely. Um but I I believe as a as a Christ follower, is if we were all Christ's followers, we wouldn't even need a government.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Things would, we would take care of one another. We would make sure there's not hungry widows and there's not kids without parents. Uh if we were all Christ's followers, we would there wouldn't be kids without fathers in the home. There wouldn't, there wouldn't be cheating and and sin. There if there was, there'd be restoration. If we were truly all Christ's followers, there would be uh a perfect world. And that's coming. You know, we believe that that's coming in one way or another. Um but yeah, the trust in the government and is is great when you depend on it, becomes generational and it just becomes expected, and it's it's nothing new.
SPEAKER_00But do you think this is actually what I do believe, so I'm just putting it out there. I believe that people that you know want control know that. And know that when you find freedom in the Lord and you let Him, for lack of a better word, own you and your whole spirit, your whole body, your whole mind, there's freedom in that.
SPEAKER_01I do think that's where things are actually spiritual. Yes. There is an actual evil that is behind the world.
SPEAKER_00The devil's alive and well. Right. And so when you can completely rely on the Lord, it's the same tactic. It's using that nature of our human nature to completely rely on something and completely be owned by something. We want to be uh identified with something. We want to be on a team. And so when you can the government or whatever it is, can't when the devil can get you to identify with pleasure, to identify with all these quick hit things, and you know, you need to compare yourself to this, compare yourself to that. It's like it's you're just not like it's the same, you're uh he's got um what's the word that I'm looking for? He's leaning into the same feeling of wanting to be on a team which we all have, whether we're introverted, extroverted, it doesn't matter. We all want to feel like we're part of something, we want to be needed and we want to be known. If the devil can make you feel the same way, then he's got you. You know what I mean? Like it it it really is, because you know, the Lord has to have all of your heart. He has to have all of your soul, he has to have all of your mind, everything, like taking those thoughts captives, it all matters because if he's after all, if he if the Lord is after all these things, but he doesn't own them, then what does it's if it's either to me, it's either the Lord or it's not. Like it's either the Lord or it's the devil. Like it's that's my personal belief. But I'm with you on this, you know, freedom to it's what that's what makes America great. I'm just saying that I think it's just such a trick of the system to be like I can only be identified that by this and nothing else, and I have to drift over here, and this is my life now, and I am only ever gonna make this much money, and I'm only gonna be able to do these things, and I'm gonna be I always have to be on food stamps, and I'm just that this is what I'm always gonna have to do, and I'm never gonna come out of it. And so it's at some point or another, you just feel like, man, I don't even have a choice. So, how do you get out of that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a good question. I know our pastor did a message a few weeks ago, and he kind of challenged anyone to say, you know, their problem, I'm I'm oh I'm overweight, I I need to lose 50 pounds. And then he said, finish it with, and that's the way I want it. You know, whatever it is that you are, just after you say that, say, and that's the way I want it. It really does challenge you. It's like, I'm on welfare, my mom was on welfare, my kids are going to be on welfare, and that's the way I want it.
SPEAKER_00Like you were saying, generational. It becomes generational. Or you were yeah, you said generational earlier. You were like, that's many.
SPEAKER_03Is that really the way you want it? Because it it can be better, you know, it can be better. And and I think I don't know. I know for you for sure. Like you look at your upbringing, and you know, your book you describe it so well in your book of just the different uh traumas and different things. And again, we talked about it last week. You've lived in hundreds of probably different homes, you know, dozens at least. Um you've changed that. Why? Like what made you different that Grant and Joel had a different childhood than than you did? Like, how does that happen?
SPEAKER_01I think for me, I ha I was very motivated. So I had a growth mindset. I was not complacent. Um, I I I believed in the American dream. I didn't know that I believed in the American dream. I didn't know that that's what it was when I was 10 years old or whatever, but I believed I actually could make something of myself different from the circumstances that I was in. And that's really what makes America awesome, you know, is that we really can do that. There's some people that really believe that they don't have an option. And I don't know always the secret sauce. Like in therapy, I I talk about growth mindset and resilience and grit and being able to dig in and fight for what you want. Um, and you can change from being complacent and believing that this is the best it's ever gonna get. I'm always gonna be dependent on the government, I'm always gonna be dependent on this nine to five, I'm always gonna be have to live this way. Well, you can choose and practice and believe and think toward change. Um, so I think I had a growth mindset. I also think I had a father who was praying for his family. He just didn't know he was praying for me, also. So I had a Christian father who was praying for me. Um, and that made a big difference. And also I read a lot. Reading is so powerful because it opens your mind to all the possibilities that are out there. When you're reading about other, you know, Laura Ingalls, you know, when you're reading about little women and you're seeing how as a, you know, for me as a young girl, like, wow, look at the life that they have. What what is the key ingredient here?
SPEAKER_03Even though you didn't see it, you knew that something else existed.
SPEAKER_01Education, reading. I went to church, you know, I and I saw other examples. And even sometimes just going to a friend's house. Yeah. You're like, wait a minute, they've got cabbage patch kids and strawberry shortcake stuff.
SPEAKER_03And there's not beer cans on the floor.
SPEAKER_01There's not beer cans, you know, where's all the roaches? Yeah, where's all the roaches? Like people live like this. So the Bible even talks about how even creation itself you can look at it and believe that there's a God just by looking at creation. And so I think a person's heart has to be bent towards the possibilities of change and growth, and and that you don't have to stay where you are. And the United States actually supports that. Now uh, you know, other side of the conversation, there are challenges, there are obstacles, there is generational trauma. Um, I believe in that, but it's still up to the individual to make changes. But when you have this individual and then that family, because it's a ripple effect, right? You make a change and it doesn't just affect you, it affects your spouse, it affects your kids, it affects your neighborhood, it affects your community, it affects your whole state. So there's movement when you start getting forward momentum, and I think that's how you can start changing entire like cultures.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You have to have the like I like what you said of you have to see the possibility. Like there's so much value in being like, you know, in when you're in a scenario, you're spending time with another family, or you're seeing these, or you're reading a book. I think that's why there's so much value in the whole story as opposed to this quick hit culture that we've created on social media. Reels are not gonna give you that. Well, because somebody they think people think they do. People think it becomes this comparison thing. It's this quick hit, and it's like this, man. I want to be like that. I want to have that many views. I want to have or I want people to like me that much.
SPEAKER_01And that's gonna be how they define success.
SPEAKER_00But they know don't see the journey like leadership or success. Nobody that rarely, unless somebody writes about it or actually tells a whole story and you hear the whole thing, rarely do you ever hear the nights that they couldn't go to sleep or the you know, all the things that they walk through and blood, sweat and tears of guarding.
SPEAKER_01But that's the blood, sweat and tears of getting through school.
SPEAKER_00And so many people struggle and get stuck here because it's like and they're just doom scrolling, bam, bam, well, never do that, I'll never do that. And but it's just this like for some reason, you know, that's what makes people feel good. And I've been stuck in that before. I'm like, man, and then all of a sudden, well, how do I even if I wanted to do that, I have to do all these other things. No, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that, you know? Yeah, I don't know. That's crazy to me.
SPEAKER_03There's times like that, and and and you as you guys are talking, I'm just thinking of just moments, you know. We've had a business now for 20 21 and a half years, and there were so many moments that I'm like, we're probably not gonna make it. I gotta go. I've actually applied for jobs, you know, it's been a while. But uh, or and there's been more times that I've just like, God, how'd I get here? How'd this happen? How are we where we're at? I mean, because I still feel like we didn't do it n enough to get here. Like, I'm like, how how how did how did it happen that we got so many people or that we had this successful job? And um God does bless bless you, and it and it we don't like to probably admit because I don't I haven't earned nothing. I've earned nothing except saying, Jesus, your Lord, I'm a mess. Please save me. And then and and everything else is is really on up to him, and he's been graceful. But getting back to what you were were saying was because I think a lot about it in my life, and I think about where the government's played a role. I don't recall ever being on welfare growing up. I'm sure my mom maybe was, because she had six kids in several different marriages. Um, you know, she did have a good job by the time my family thinks I was spoiled because when they were I was the youngest by far, so my five siblings are out. It was just me and mom had a uh job at the factory, so we were rich, you know. Yeah. We had a nice duplex with a little way less roaches than the the previous homes.
SPEAKER_01It is relative, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it really is. And and and I remember mom bought a new car, an Oldsmobile '82 Oldsmobile Omega, a bright red one. I came home from school and was like, man, we have five. Front wheel drive. Boy, it's great. Uh but I guess it comes down to uh perspective. And and again, like Phyllis said, you know, even growing up and what she grew up in, grew up when I grew up in, uh, it's funny to think about the three different homes we all lived in. I put myself probably in the middle of, you know, mom and dad, great little Christian home over here. I don't know what happened to you. You had no excuses.
SPEAKER_00I agree.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We we we were different. I put myself in the middle. It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great. You know, I mean, I was uh single mom working, several stepdads, you know. Um I learned what sex was from a babysitter. So I mean, I probably shouldn't throw that out there. But looking back, I'm like looking back, it's like this wasn't great. Yeah. You know, this isn't good. And it kind of says why, you know, maybe I thought the way I did about women and things for a long time. Um those things, those things mess you up, and it's just that's a spiritual problem. It was a it was a wasn't a government problem. Well, we didn't have free daycare. I would have solved the whole thing. Yeah, but maybe. But it that's a spiritual attack that corrupts you. That those are the things that mess you up. And the the the lack of the nuclear family, and I know this isn't a popular thing, but there you cannot deny the statistics of mom and dad fall in love, wait till marriage, have kids, do the right things. That kid is going to be, I don't know how many times more likely to be a respectable person to grow up and have a good life, stay out of trouble, stay out of the hardships.
SPEAKER_00Even if they don't stay out of trouble, though, it's having that base of mom and dad to come home and actually speak to it. Because that's what we were talking about earlier was there are just so many kids that come home and like for you, right? You experience that spiritual attack with your you, whatever you want to call it, experience that with your babysitter. Like, even if you were, and I'm not dashing on, I'm just saying, like, even did you have anybody in your life that you could actually talk about this with that would walk you through it? That would be a way.
SPEAKER_03And we're getting pretty deep here, but that's been a problem in my family. Yeah. And we get back to the uh you get and my mom probably listens to this. I love my mom, and I think she's learned a lot of hard lessons in her 85 years. But um well, you talked about what would you call uh the optimism, the top delusional optimism that my mom almost has delusional grace where she distrusts people too much, and and it's hurt people because of it. Not because she wanted to hurt people, but people have been hurt, and you know, and I don't blame it or anything for her now, but uh it has affected all of us in a way or another, where oh, he's a good guy. No, he's not. No, he's not. You don't want to face it because it sucks to say somebody's not a good guy.
SPEAKER_01No one wants to be that judgy, especially if they're your bloodkin.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you don't want to be judgy, judge people, but um that stuff can hurt people, and and so there is a fine line there of being wise, having your eyes open, and uh protecting protecting those around you and loving people. But again, at the same time, you gotta uh as an adult, you gotta look back and go, that wasn't good, that wasn't good. How can I make sure my kids don't go through that? And I'm not sure they haven't. You know, I've had some discussions with my kids, and you know, I find things out that I didn't know about. So how can you be diligent? How can you pay attention? How can you not take people for granted? Because you know what? The world is sick. Yeah, there's a lot of sinful people out here that we have to be on the alert, we have to do what we can do, uh, be diligent.
SPEAKER_00But the enemy prowls around like a roaring lion.
SPEAKER_03He does, and he wins a lot of little battles that and and what we can't let him do is win the war.
SPEAKER_00And and uh Newslash, he did not the battle is waiting. Battles already won.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. We just gotta we gotta set the captives free, and some people don't know.
SPEAKER_00It's up to us though. Like it's up to us. It's do you want to because there's so much in like the world has unlimited information. So you even talk about you know, things that you're walking through, all this. If you just let online speak to it, you're hit. Like all the different things when it comes to trauma, it comes to situations, it comes to all these things, you just let the everybody's got an opinion, which is great, you know. But when we talk about um just the wisdom from the Lord and asking Jesus, okay, I need you to intervene, because no matter what it is that we've walked through, even if like we were talking about with your kids, even if you did have sex before you were married as parents, like my wife and I we were living together until we got convicted by a pastor and he challenged us and we couldn't financially afford to move out. But like we slept next to each other, didn't touch touch each other for a month and a half, almost two months, until we got married because we made a decision. This is what we were gonna do, and we were gonna stay. But that was that was from the Lord. We I yeah. But you know, I'm just saying, if somebody didn't have anybody walking them through that, or the Lord to give them wisdom through it, you would just be like, I'm condemned, that's it, we can't do this, I'm just gonna run from it, I'm judged, and you just next thing you know, you're just completely backing out, and you have nobody taking you know what I mean? Like the wisdom in the world just feels like it's disappearing. Like, because there's a you can get whatever you want from AI, you can get whatever you want from this person, you can get whatever you can get it counseling probably from an you can get uh counseling probably from an AI bot now.
SPEAKER_01You can ask chat GPT some questions. I don't know if we're supposed to talk about chat GPT, but uh you can ask it questions.
SPEAKER_00We can call it different, like something like shut the GPT or something, you know.
SPEAKER_01My assistant opposite. I'm not opposed necessarily. I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but like I'm not gonna hang my hat on the theology of chat GPT.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's the problem. Where's the conviction of the person giving?
SPEAKER_00That's what I'm saying, though. Like that's we but I do think that you have to approach things like AI, you approach things like with wisdom. Where does that come from?
SPEAKER_01The Lord. And the Bible says you ask him. What's that scripture? We need to look it up. You can ask the Lord for wisdom, he gives it to you.
SPEAKER_00Uh look it up. Yeah, please.
SPEAKER_03You're no Jace Robertson. He'd be throwing it down. Gosh darn it. Verse after verse. But that that's true. And even the world, and I've had this discussion, I've got even some of my kids that don't think quite the way I do. Um think about this. Like, okay, let's let's assume that you don't believe in Jesus and you'll believe who he said he was. People are like, well, how do you follow Jesus? What does that even mean? Because they're going to look at G following Jesus as this maybe this specific church over here and the people over there. And I don't I know what so-and-so's done, and I know it's it's really getting in your Bible, getting on your knees in prayer, asking God to intervene, to give you his Holy Spirit and to lead you. And it'll work out. You'll you'll get answers, you'll find solutions. But even if you don't believe it, if you did, if you if the world lived a biblical lifestyle, take us to any any city, any state uh that's that's you know scurrying to depend on the government to provide everything, if if those people lived in a the according to biblical guidelines of of marriage, raising your family, uh being responsible, being faithful, that society would be, would thrive. Yeah. And and there's been societies like that over over time. There's always sin. There's always somebody in the garden messing around. But if you can, if you can stay to those principles, you're your society's gonna do nothing but get better and thrive and be healthier.
SPEAKER_01James 1.5. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given to him. And that's the thing where we were talking about the shame or thinking about like, oh, I was a sinner. Well, the beautiful thing about God and God's grace is when he said to you and you're now a wife, hey, stop this activity and get married, and y'all waited that long. So you could look back on that with shame, or you could say, you know, God brought a a a wise minister and we used wisdom to listen to that wise minister, and he gave it to us without condemning us, right? Without just saying, Hey, look, this is the better way, and you just have to choose the better way. There's no reproach.
SPEAKER_03But see, that's offensive to some people, though. Like what you just said, and and what I said about living in biblical values, and that's so offensive to us. A lot of people don't know. They get angry. Like they and the anger these days when it comes to the political answers versus spiritual problem, the anger is so severe that on certain issues people think that we would deserve to be physically harmed or worse because of our opinions. There's our opinions are so hurtful to others that we we deserve to be uh injured or killed for having our opinion. There's people that really believe that. If anybody on on the on the religious side, if you will, the Christian side would think that about somebody else, I'd say you're nuts. You don't, you're not on our side. You don't if if I if you believe that person deserves to die because they maybe have a more liberal mindset or then you're crazy. Get all you're not on, I don't want to claim you as being on my side of this argument. Uh but the week.
SPEAKER_01We speak the truth in love.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But we act like it's something new. We act like this kind of corruption is new. It's not. I mean, you you read up uh one of the best books I ever read. Uh Bill O'Reilly wrote a book called Uh Killing Jesus, him and a guy named Martin Dugard, I think. Um, and they talked about like, and I love that because to me I'm a history buff. I love the Bible, but I like to know the cultural stuff that was going on, the way things worked. That's why I think a lot of people like the chosen and things like that, because it it puts you there. Like you realize the Roman presence, you realize the different things that were going on that when you're just reading, you know, two-dimensional text, if you will, you don't really see the depth of what was really going on with it in context, yeah. Yeah, and the and the rebel that Jesus was, what he was really doing to turn over the church crowd. Um but like uh Caesar Tiberius, who was the Caesar of Rome at the time, was a sick, demented fool. He had an island and he had a person in charge of the emperor's pleasure, and all he would do was get children.
SPEAKER_01Epstein.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, worse. Yeah, he would get children and them up there, and that was it. And you don't want to know if you read in it. I mean, they go into it pretty thick on the book.
SPEAKER_01So there's nothing new.
SPEAKER_03When he was done with you, they throw you off the cliff. You know, but so it was just this depravity and this sickness and these things that are going on, it's not new. I mean, none of this stuff that's happened. America's a slavery is a terrible thing, awful. I can't believe you would even ever uh uh think of a person as property. It's horrible. It's been going on for centuries all over the world. Yeah, it's terrible to think of a person as property. But at some point, you know, um, we gotta realize God made everyone. Yeah, God gives life, He made everyone, so why don't we treat everyone like they're equal to us? Yeah. We love them. And that doesn't mean more. That doesn't mean giving someone extra stuff, you know. This whole, and I'm going on a tangent here, but I love it. This whole uh elevation there where women want to dominate men or take over for men, the sports thing, it don't even get me started on that. But the reason that there's a rise in I'd say toxic women's lib, I do believe women's rights are very important. That the but the toxicity, the bad stuff that's come out of it, it's not women's fault. It's men. Be a man, be a husband, be a father, show up. Don't don't evacuate the premises. We wouldn't have these problems if men were doing what they're we were called to do by the Lord. I think it's our own fault, uh, as Tony would say, your own with the stuff that roads are made of. But they uh uh, you know, we have created this mess. Here's what you do be a man, be a good father, be a good husband, show up. I think it's that void myself.
SPEAKER_01And I don't have data to back this up, but it's just my own observation. I think it's that void of male leadership in the home and men leading their wives and their children. And I'm I'm old-fashioned feminist, I guess. I should vote. I should be able to get paid the same as you if we do the same work and have the same training or more if I have more. But I think it's in that void where these angry women have come up from. I think they are angry. Yeah, there's a reason they're screeching like banshees in the street. They don't realize it, but I think they're angry because they've had to be the chief cook and bottle washer and the leader, and they're carrying burdens they were never meant to bear, and they're looking in all the wrong looking for love in all the wrong places. They they really are, and I think they're angry because there's been no men. Men need to be men again and make men men again.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Let's make men men again, because in all reality, then it turns into like the question that could be who is discipling your thinking? Because even if um I i you you think about uh a woman who is mad about all these things because she had to do all these responsibilities, all the responsibilities that a man or a father in the home should have had, if she was in the right community and in the right relationship with somebody who is healthy and has walked through it as well, and maybe is on the other side, um her thought process I believe would shift, her perspective would shift. But I think that's why it's so important of putting ourselves in the right room and around the right people who can speak into your life and do all these different things. And then even when that kind of stuff happens and you decide to put yourself around, but that can but on the other end, some would say, Well, I do, that's why I surround myself with all these powerful women who are independent thinkers and we do all this stuff, and so then you've got not one person screeching in the streets, you got five to ten, and then it's like, Well, we're making this huge impact, and that's what it feels like. And nobody's saying that some of the things that people are saying, whether it's men, whether it's women, nobody's saying that any of those thought processes aren't valid. There's not some validity in there somewhere. I'm just saying we don't have to be freaking hatred hateful about it. We don't have to just scream at each other and say, you don't believe what I believe, you should be, you know, some killed or whatever it may be. It's like it's crazy to me how far people go. Like you were saying, like people believe that other people with different beliefs should just be automatically exed out no matter what it is, and they will swear by it up and down. And it hurts my heart because there are so many different things, political, not political, family problems. That if people were just willing to sit down like this and just have a conversation and actually hear each other's hearts, there would be a lot more problems, less, a lot less problems than there are right now.
SPEAKER_01At least it would be a an exchange that's respectful. Did y'all know that JD Vance went on the view and he says that he and the one woman in there, is it Joey?
SPEAKER_04Joey Beher.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, her. He said they're best best buds now, they're besties. Because apparently, somewhere along the way, even though they disagree on so many things, they were both respectful and like adults to each other, respectful adults to each other, and they they used their words, and they apparently kind of came to a a mutual respect on the level of just human respect. Even if I don't agree with you, I respect you because you are an image bearer, you know, and at least the Christians in the world, yep, who are also sometimes trying to be keyboard warriors on social media. It like they need when they look at the the other person, they're looking at a fellow image bearer, not just their enemy.
SPEAKER_00That's good. We're it's our responsibility to to think higher.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Like, and you know, this is not me saying that Christians are on a platform. I'm just saying my belief is that like I'm called to think through a different lens. Absolutely. So no matter what it takes, uh, I have to fight for reconciliation. I Have to fight for all these things. I've been convicted of that lately, man. Like these last two, like two or three days, like the Lord smacked me between my eyes, and it's just like, no matter what, I have to take the higher road. Doesn't matter who's older, who has more influence, who has this, who has that. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm called to be uh like I'm called to do what I can to reconcile relationships because I don't want anybody to ever think that you know they can't talk to me about something or they can't or I can't have a civil conversation or whatever it may be. Like I only I don't want anybody to think they can't call me to just even talk about Jesus. I don't want to be, I don't want anybody to be jaded towards something. If and that also takes a lot of humility to be like, man, I screwed up. Hey, you know, I'm hurt or whatever it is. Like it's we need a little bit more of that in our country because there are so many people, women and men alike. There's a lot of men who just abandon their families, and their excuses, they just abandoned their families, and they you know what their excuses, they all owe all this child support. Well, it's like she didn't treat me right in the first place, and yada, yada, yada. And it's like, what are we talking? Like, you're blaming your entire downfall of your family and the fact that you're not taking care of your kids and the fact that you're not paying any child support on the fact that she was treating you wrong, or what are we what are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01We're talking about there has to be a mutual exchange of relationship that a relationship that people want to be in. And Alan Lisa speak on this. Like if he wants to be respected, he needs to be respectable. And if she wants to be loved, like Christ loved the church, he needs to be lovable. And that's where if if I'm meeting your needs and you're meeting my needs, we're in a mutual relationship of respect. But when I'm so busy focused on meeting my own needs, yeah, that's gonna make the other person be so focused on their needs. And that's from the time that it's a marriage all the way to the the larger society that we live in. People are just so desperately trying to meet their own needs and not be in a posture of humility. And we talked about that in the last podcast. Um, and that's what causes so much strife. And then at the very end of the day, there are people who are just prideful, they are they are not gonna submit their hearts and minds to the sovereignty of God, and pride is the original I mean, that was that's Satan himself. So it it it is a spiritual battle, yeah, especially here. I think we're the most diverse nation in the world, right? Yeah, and people will slam us for not being diverse. I don't understand it, but we're literally the most diverse. But we're a country founded on Christian principles, and so I think that makes the US you know a target. I think that puts a target on us. Yeah, absolutely, which does which goes to the bigger problem of like, why are we fighting such battles? I think we're fighting spiritual battles, and I think we're fighting um a culture who, well, there's so many deep things.
SPEAKER_00We're fighting the deep battles because everybody wants to be affirmed. Everybody wants affirmation. They want it from their spouse, they're not getting it, so I'm gonna go do all these things. They want it from their husband, or the I'm gonna go do all, so I'm gonna do all these things. They want it from, you know, work and they're not getting it, so I'm gonna do all these things. But in all reality, like affirmation has to come from the king. Affirmation have to, and that's such a we go back to identity. Like, I know I throw that out all the time, but everybody wants to be needed and they want to be known. And everybody's after this. I just want somebody to love me. And even if you're like, oh, I just want somebody to love me well. Well, if you talk about a husband and wife, that's communication. It's like, hey, here's my gaps, and I need them, I need we need to fill it. And here's my gaps, and we gotta fill it.
SPEAKER_01So it's like we just gotta it's obviously complex, right? We're talking about communication and humility and and all of that, you know, respect and all uh identity. So it's like a gumbo, right? There's so many ingredients.
SPEAKER_04It's really what's gumbo? You don't know what a gumbo is? Some kind of soup, huh? Oh, gosh, carry on.
SPEAKER_01So sad. But there's so many ingredients in a good gumbo, and you gotta have all of them. So there's a lot of you know, it you have to have Jesus.
SPEAKER_00You season every piece, right?
SPEAKER_01But as you learn and become sanctified and more Christ-like, there's a lot of ingredients in that gumbo. Christ is at the center. I don't know. Does that make him the rue? I don't think so. I don't know, the chef. But at the end of the day, there's so many things that you have to have in place in that that gumbo in the household or in the country to make things taste really good. If you leave out an ingredient, it's just not gonna be the same.
SPEAKER_00I agree. The Lord is after our hearts. Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind. He's after every single bit of it. And um I really do believe, and it's not, you know, we say we talked about at the beginning, the word the problem's not political, it's spiritual, all this different stuff, and people do want to blame a lot of things on politics. But I want to encourage anybody that's listening, um and just let you know, just tell you straight up, uh the the problem's the devil. Like it's not, you know, it's the problem is not politics, the problem is not what happened to you back in the day, the problem is not what you walk through, all these different the problem is the devil, and when you can identify that and you call it by name, he gets real scared and he has to run. And I would encourage anybody that's walking through something like that, that's having a problem where they're finding their um want they're finding the things that they want, whatever it may be, they're finding it in anything else but the Lord. Just ask the Lord to come in and fill you up. Ask him to give you everything you need, ask him to shift your perspective because he wants to fill your heart, he wants it. Um and so I want to ask a couple questions for everybody that's listening to the uh to end our episode today. What currently has your heart? What is shaping your mind? Where are you looking for affirmation? And are you waiting on God's timing or trying to outrun it? Oh, we can hit on that really fast. The God's timing thing, because I think that's the other thing is like the affirmation. People want this now, now, now, now, now, now, now. Why is it so hard for people to be patient?
SPEAKER_03Oh, well, it's we just want it now. I mean, everything he wants now. And we're used to it.
SPEAKER_01My way right away now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And even so, more so nowadays, because we're so used to it. You know, our focus is like boom, yeah. You can press a couple buttons on your phone, food's at your door in 20 minutes, you know. You press a couple buttons, a guy's here to pick you up. Um, things are different uh with patience, but patience is a fruit of the spirit. You know, you look at the honestly, if you just remember the fruits of the spirit, uh patience, kindness, goodness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. And self-control, which I believe sums up the other ones almost completely. But if if you think about the fruits of the spirit and every word, every action, every day, you're gonna you're gonna be okay. Now, not it's hard to sit there and think through that, but this conversation, this podcast, this interaction, um this this next discussion, this this next meeting, um, if you really try to think and and think is the fruit are the fruits of the spirit at work in everything I'm doing here. I'm proud of you. You mentioned earlier to you made some steps for reconciliation or forgiveness that um it's been chewing at you. Yeah. We all saw it for a long time, but you know, it's it's the right thing to do, you know, and I'm proud of you for that. Uh we all have that, and it make and it makes me step back and think, hmm, there's probably a text or two I should send out there, you know. There's probably a person I should reach out to. Um again, you're our our our hope is in the Lord. Our hope is in God's mercy. Our hope is not in, my God, I hope this guy gets elected. You know, right now, so I'll finish with this. Noblesville's going through something. It's all over the no local, that's where we're at, Noblesville, Indiana. There's a big issue with the town square. It's got an old town square, and there's they're remodeling all the streets and they're doing a section at a time, and the whole town's in a few people are in an uproar because their businesses are struggling now, because they've ripped up the entire road. Yeah. And I've been watching on Facebook, well, this person's business is going out. Well, this person's, they're all mad at the mayor. I know the mayor a little bit. Don't know him, don't, you know, we don't hang out and play golf together or nothing, but uh, I don't know that it's his fault. You know, maybe it is. I don't know. But that's an easy thing to do, is say, well, it's got to be this problem over here. But as a business owner, I immediately go to, and when we have a business that tries to help businesses be successful and make sure their numbers are right. And so my mind goes to, are you doing all the things that you can possibly do to be successful before you go to blaming that? And I think that that has to happen with uh a lot of the stuff we're talking about with our culture crumbling. When when when the things we're doing aren't working, 99% of my problems are either you said the devil. It's either the devil or me. A lot of it's me. Uh am I doing everything I can do to be successful? And if not, then then I can just work on that. But boy, it's so much easier just to blame Trump or to blame the mayor or blame my mom or the police that gave me a ticket. Anybody. Yeah, the police that gave you a ticket, totally lawful because you were deterrorizing the neighborhood with your car. It wasn't me. But uh honestly, fix yourself take responsibility.
SPEAKER_01That's that's that's a sh because bad things may have happened to you. Yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_03They have probably to everybody, right?
SPEAKER_01And but you got to take responsibility at some point. So, yeah, you can recognize where it came from, but it doesn't have to determine where you're going.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Ladies and gentlemen, we are not in a political crisis, we are in the middle of a heart crisis, and that's the exact thing that Jesus Christ came to heal. Let's pray. Jesus, thank you for how amazing you are. We love you, Lord God. Once again, it's such an honor and a privilege to be a part of this podcast to get the opportunity to sit here with our friends and just um base it all around you. And I ask, Lord Jesus, that somebody gets exactly what it is that they need to get today in this episode. We love you. It's in your heavenly name we pray, and everybody said, Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, hey, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Conviction Exchange. My name is Chandler. My name is Sean.
SPEAKER_01I'm Phyllis.
SPEAKER_00Hey, we love every single one of you. We'll see you next week.
