The Conviction Exchange
Conviction. Not everybody has one. But everybody does have an opinion — so let’s talk about them. Let’s talk about real world problems, real life scenarios and hear real stories about how a conviction for Jesus can make a lot of the things we walk through a little easier to deal with. The goal for the Conviction exchange podcast is to laugh together, challenge each other, grow together…but mostly laugh together. We’re funny — at least we think we are.
Our conviction is this: Jesus is the answer, — and we just want to talk about it with people.
The Conviction Exchange
Beauty From Ashes | Phyllis Robertson Thomas Pt. 2
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In Part 2 of our powerful conversation with Phyllis Robertson Thomas, we dive deep into the beautiful, messy intersection of hard truths, redemption, and biblical grace. Sharing highly sensitive stories requires spiritual discernment, and Phyllis shares how she practically balances the call to walk in the light (1 John 1:7) while fiercely protecting and respecting those who are still struggling.
If you are currently trapped in a season of heavy secrets, deep shame, or a painful history you are terrified to confront, this episode is a gentle reminder that Jesus steps directly into our hidden places—not to condemn, but to bring unexpected healing.
We wrap up the conversation by tackling the modern identity crisis. We look at what happens when we stop finding our worth in our circumstances or our fears, and anchor it in the one who is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).
Thanks for listening to The Conviction Exchange.
Well, hey, once again, welcome to episode three of the Conviction Exchange. We're super excited to have Phyllis Robertson Thomas back with us for the rest of her episode. Uh we're super pumped about her book. We're super excited for all that the Lord's gonna do, the lives that it's gonna change. But before we get to anything else, as always, let's pray. Jesus, thank you so much for how amazing you are. We love you. It's such an honor and a privilege, Lord, to be here and to speak about what you want us to speak about. Holy Spirit, fill us, fill us with everything that we need, all the words that we need, Lord God. We love you and thank you for everything. It's in your heavenly name we pray. Amen, amen, amen. Come on, let's get it today. So, as we talk about your dad, as we deep dive into all that, I know that we don't want to um just continue to hit on that, but it is, I am interested to know what did his personal blessing mean to you as you prepared to tell this story.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, I don't have to think about that. The it just felt I felt supported. He was actually like a cheerleader. That's awesome. And he he got it that uh you know what I had to say was part of my story and worth sharing because he had his story that was worth sharing. And so also so much of what he did felt validating, so validating and so redeeming, you know. And one of the first things that Zach said to me when he, you know, on our second phone call, he's just like, I can see God just bringing beauty from ashes, and that's really what it was. Like, what could have just burned to the ground, you know, God made something beautiful out of it, like God always does.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think a lot of people need to hear that though. There's so many things that people think that they can't share the ashes part, they won't share it. They think that, you know, I have to keep that from people because it'll give me less influence or whatever it may be. When in all reality, I think that it's the I just think of all the stories in the Bible that came from the ashes. Yeah. I think about all the people who when they decided to truly give it all up to Jesus, because I think that there's a piece of like you're still holding on to a little bit of pride if you're not willing to talk about the ashes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, for sure. Oh, because there's there is shame, and you know, but all through the Bible, that's one of the reasons why Christianity makes sense historically. Like, who would found a religion on all of the messiness that came, you know, in Jesus' bloodline alone? But there's a lot of messiness in the Bible. Like, how does that make sense? Well, it makes sense because we serve a God who redeems. That's like the whole point of the story. And it was, it was redeeming. I mean, that's that's one of the biggest things. I guess it was just like the powerful piece of all of that was just knowing how God continues to do good out of things that seem so messed up. I thought what I had was amazing before I even met my dad. Like, wow, look what God has done in my life. I've come a long way. I've broken a lot of generational curses, I've I've broken the cycle of a lot of things, poverty and you name it. But there was still more. And I'm 50. And now I'm like, could there be any more than what I have? Like, I feel so fulfilled and so good, and God's just so good. But you know what? Not a new family. We've had enough of that. I've got plenty of family now. But what is the next thing that God's gonna do where he's gonna have another wow moment of redeeming something in my life? Because there's always something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What's the family dynamic now? What's the family dynamic now with you and um your family, obviously your family before you met um Phil and his family?
SPEAKER_01So my family in like growing up, my mom's kids. Okay, yeah. Um, well, my brother and sister and I are super close. It's awesome. We talk all the time. Yeah. Um, so I was just there last weekend, actually. So um, they all live in the same area of southwest Missouri. My sister's about an hour away from everybody else. Okay. But um, and and one of my nephews, her son, lives there, and then another nephew lives in northwest Arkansas. But between Springfield, Missouri and like Fayetteville area, that's where pretty much all my mom's family lives and my brother's kids.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_01I and they're fully supportive. Um, and now my brother can get a little bit protective, like, how are they treating you?
SPEAKER_00Like he wanted to get that's where my brain is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, he's very much like, you know, let me know how it's going when you get there. What are they, you know, how are they treating you? When are you leaving? Where are you at? So yeah, and he he makes jokes. He's like, Where are you gonna be in case I need to come in there in like stealth mode? And he was in the military, so he makes jokes, like if I have to like sneak up in the swamp in a boat and pull you out. Um, so anyway, but he he joked about it, but he really was truly concerned about my heart. Like, are they gonna treat you well, you know, and and also just in general, not necessarily from him, but are these sorry guys, are these people as godly and Christ-like as what they portray on TV, which was a big question. And I tend to be a little cynical and I tend to be kind of a I question things sometimes, and I think that's also kind of an old coping skill, a way of coping and and dealing with situations, but they really are like a great family. They, you know, I'm honored that they are my family. I hope they're honored that I'm their family. Um, all of our values are on point, um, our Christian beliefs on point. Some of the things that I've done, like mission work and where I've gone, parallels what they've done, even to the country.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they've been there. Yeah, I heard some of those stories. Like you cross paths, probably.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Didn't even know it.
SPEAKER_01There's they did a lot of work, like some some parts of the family, uh, some people in the family did a lot of work in Nicaragua. Um, but like Willie and Corey do work in the Dominican Republic. Um, the Dasher clan, like my Aunt Jan, um, that that I didn't get to meet, but people are like, You remind me of her. She did work in Nicaragua. Yeah. Their grandkids still go to Nicaragua. And uh they were they were in the country when we were in the country.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which is crazy. That's cool. That it's go ahead. What were you gonna say? I thought you had something.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, so so to the book, I mean, uh, we obviously know uh we've we've had a chance to read some of it, uh all of it, actually. Um and it's gonna be here. It's gonna be here. It's it's somewhere on the way here now. It was supposed to have been here yesterday.
SPEAKER_01Oh, we're about to make a road trip to the great far north. I don't mean where's it at?
SPEAKER_03Where's the Pennsylvania? It's in York, Pennsylvania, just sitting there. So it's gonna get here. We're gonna ship them out. Got a book event tomorrow in Noblesville. I think we have a slide about that. I don't know. Oh, we do uh uh you got a book event tomorrow from two to four in Noblesville. Uh did I not tell you? No. Book sign in. You think I'd have told her? There it is. There it is.
SPEAKER_01We you we did talk about it, but I didn't know that it had actually worked out. So that's cool.
SPEAKER_03Eric Slades tomorrow, gonna be there, sign in and selling books, come on out. Uh that's gonna be exciting. But let's talk a little bit about I got uh the opportunity my wife and I got to go down with you and Tony and your uncle Gordon and Ann and Izzy, Gordon's dog. Um he loves her so much. What kind of dog is it? What kind of dog? It's just a Gordon dog. He just carries it.
SPEAKER_01It's this cute, sweet little lap dog. I've seen him like he'll hold her and just get her little brush out and just brush her after her bath. Makes me like that.
SPEAKER_00Whispered to her. Okay. Anyhow. That makes me like him so much more. Talking to him on the phone, uh, Gordon, if you're listening, you have the best voice on the book. Those were lies.
SPEAKER_01Those were lies. It's the opposite of the truth. He hates that dog. No, I think he actually loves her a little bit. He just doesn't want to admit it. But no. Not friendly with us.
SPEAKER_03But he he uh let's talk a little bit about that. Gordon helped your dad write a couple books. He's obviously very close. Brother in former former brother-in-law of your dad. Yeah. But I think just in talking with him, you work more closely with him than probably anyone ever has in writing a book and you two together or something. How how was that experience? And and your guys is yeah, it's like you guys have been around each other for your whole life.
SPEAKER_01The love between the two of you is Oh my gosh, I love that man. It's it's like he has been my uncle my whole life. You know, yeah. And we wordle uh we're on the wordle team every day.
SPEAKER_00I want to get on the wordle.
SPEAKER_01That's an exclusive club screen.
SPEAKER_00It's me. I wasn't sure if this podcast got me an automatic ticket. I don't know. Okay, cool. You're gonna have to do way more than that.
SPEAKER_03It's a closed group. Gordon and I take on my wife and and Phyllis every day. Didn't realize that.
SPEAKER_01I have questions. Okay.
SPEAKER_03It's not even close.
SPEAKER_01There was that was such a deep question, but look, I ran some of your results through AI, and I'm like, what's happening here? Because how did that end up being a starter work? Right. So there's strat so you can go in and get strategies to play Wordle, and I've just been winking it like, oh, this has a lot of weakness.
SPEAKER_00He's throwing it all in Chat GPT and it's giving the answer.
SPEAKER_01I don't believe he's cheating per se. I just think he's taking a deep dive into strategy that because AI was saying stuff about patterns and Gordon and I are just better than you. No, there's no way they have a vocabulary like that. I am gonna agree with you. One guess the other day. In one guess, that was a break. He put a B in a word and a K. Who starts with a B and a K in Wordle?
SPEAKER_03I did.
SPEAKER_01There's a reason you did. You're following some pattern.
SPEAKER_03He is.
SPEAKER_01So that's why.
SPEAKER_03But this is all conspiracy. This is conspiracy theories. I deny it in the name of Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Just consider the facts that when I do, and I don't know what Merlee does, she's my partner. We're I'm gonna say we, because you're probably doing the same thing I am. We're actually just going with like common sense wordle stuff. We're not going in and being like, How do you think without any strategizing? So think about it. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I think that they need to gain back as many points as they like 180 and four. It should be like they should be in the lead. If they you're I feel like you're you've you've put it into Chat GPT somehow. You you've got Chat GPT. Let's talk about Gordon. How was that?
SPEAKER_01Well, okay, so Gordon is on his team and he's he's an English guy. He taught English, which is part of why he ended up writing.
SPEAKER_02He's super smart.
SPEAKER_01He's very smart, he's good with words. He does have a he has a vocabulary better than all of ours, I'm sure. But um, he is like like a healthy good uncle that I've gotten to get to know, you know. Um, because I've had unhealthy uncles.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So fill in the blanks on that, like many girls have. Um, and so he's godly. Like I feel like I could ask him stuff. Like he's he would be my go-to if I had like a theological question and and things like that. I would, I would go to him, yeah, uh, and ask him. So um, I'm talking about like somebody outside of my husband, um, and friends that I have, you know, got a lot of godly friends in my life, but he somehow to me seems like like he's got a lot of solid theology and has just that, you know, that patriarch vibe going on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So anyway, I trust him with my life. He is an amazing human being. He's got an amazing family. You can tell a lot about a person by their kids and grandchildren, and he's got an amazing family. He married, you know, Aunt Jan passed away. She had dementia several years ago, actually, just before I started coming on the scene. But she had had really bad dementia before that for years, and I guess the last year or two was really rough. Yeah. So I definitely missed an opportunity to know her. But anyway, several years later, he met a lady and her name is Anne, and she is just the sweetest person. She is so sweet. Okay. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I'm curious. So, so how easy was it to jump in and work? Like, were there any issues at the beginning? Because you said that you know, you've had, you know, people have struggled with uncles before. Um, I don't know if that's what you're alluding to that you did struggle with uncles before, with that being the case, and then all of a sudden uncle's on the scene and it's like, all right, we're gonna write this book together. Um, what was that dynamic like, especially as you're getting into your because I can't I can only imagine that as you deep dive into this book and you start uh, you know, remembering maybe some things that have happened in the past, how did y'all navigate that together and make sure that the Lord stayed at the center of it all? Because I think it's amazing that him, you know, being theologically, all these different things. I'm sure he was a great backboard, but um, yeah, I also think that it probably wasn't the easiest to trust.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, it again it's kind of that redeeming thing. So this redeeming uncle, you know, think about all the relationships. But I've told him before, jokingly, uh, like you just don't have a creep vibe.
SPEAKER_03I know exactly what you mean by that.
SPEAKER_01He doesn't have a creep vibe.
SPEAKER_03You got six or seven years of a relationship here, too. That same like he just met him.
SPEAKER_01Right. So going into the book, he was actually the first we're like, I'm gonna come visit y'all in Springfield. He came and spent the night in our house. He was probably curious about us, like, who are these people really?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Like before you met your dad?
SPEAKER_01Um, no, I had met my dad, but like it was like the one brief trip, and then they all came down, not all, but the ones that travel and like to go do things, they came up to Branson. This is right before the lockdown with COVID. But Gordon actually came and stayed at our house. He was the first one to like spend the night with us, I guess, technically. Um, but he's super cool, dude. He's just a cool dude. Yeah, yeah. No getting around it. He never gave me a creep vibe. And yeah, by then we had hung out at the beach and you know, hung out as family and and all of that, been been together at holidays, and so um, and my dad trusted him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That probably overall made it easier, but for my dad to trust him as well as he did, it was not a reach for me to trust him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because I trusted my dad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And to me, that is massive in your journey to be so because tell me this. How long once you realized, like, how long has it been that you've known Phil was your dad?
SPEAKER_01It was the very end. Tony's better at this. It was either the very end of 2019 or the very beginning of 2020. Yeah. Cause we we I think it was the very end of no, so I didn't have so I figured it out like from my mom. I knew at the end of 2019. Okay. The paternity test happened in January. And then that came back positive, and we went to Louisiana for the first time to be with them uh in February. They had to wait till duck season ended, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_01That was just the time. But no, but really.
SPEAKER_00But you didn't, so I mean, I just think it makes me smile to know because if nobody's told you like you just exude peace. Like you just, it's it's cool to me to you approach this with so much humility, and you approach, you know, it's just really cool to sit here and hear your story. But I just think it's such a cool thing to not have known your dad for that long, but now have an amazing relationship with somebody that probably knew him better than anybody else. Yeah. To be able to write this book and process with somebody that was like your dad, like that knew your dad inside and out, and to almost feel like, you know, he was there the whole time. I just think that's the coolest thing in the world.
SPEAKER_01And he had that family background that I didn't have. So it just made so much sense. Yeah. Yeah. I would have never made it a ghost writing because, first of all, I didn't want to do it like that. But um, so he's on there. Like he we co-wrote the book and he did the heavy lifting. He kept me from sounding like clinical.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because I would have sounded very technical and clinical, I think. And he actually, well, we talked about that. He's like, you need to show, not tell. He would tell me that a lot. And so, and then I was always like, if there's anything biblical that comes up, like I'm like, what do you think about that? Like, is this sound doctrine? Is what I'm saying that scripture says accurate? He was always able to like navigate that. Also, we had a lot of great conversations about church history because we've gone to churches that that were great, and we've gone to some churches that were not super healthy. And so we talked about doctrine, you know, like trying to go back and help me understand some of what I've gone through and come come out of. And it was just so great to kind of hear his perspective on that. So again, just that you know, I feel like it's just a solid he knows the word and can be trusted. And so I respect him. Um, and then he's also a very good writer. Yeah, it's he sounded a little old. I mean, he's 70 something years old when he first started. Like it it sounded like not my voice, you know what I mean? But once we started actually collaborating together, and he said later, he's like, We should have done this more at the beginning, it would have been a lot easier for him and everybody. But um, but once we like sat together and started writing, there was so much cool synergy there. Like, and then he just he just he learned a lot about trauma, the brain. Like, I could hear he related it a lot to celebrate recovery. That's a big part of his ministry. That's cool. He meets with Celebrate Recovery with the um with the men every week. And so he was just like, Oh my goodness, like this makes sense with these people, like he and himself, like he just gets it now. Yeah, because celebrate recovery is hurts habits and hangups. Yeah, so it doesn't have to be substances necessarily, but he's like, I understand the brain now, like he he understands trauma so much better. He started using the lingo, it was pretty cool to see.
SPEAKER_00That's really, really cool. I uh I just like I I want to dive into it. Can't be easy to write about uh things that other people are struggling with in this world when it comes to because you're touching on sensitive subjects, right? Like that's sorry, I would it took me a second to say it because I want to say it right. Like we're talking about there are a lot of people that struggle with depression, there's a lot of people that struggle with anxiety, there's a lot of people who say that I feel like I need to work on my mental health. And so um tell me how, because you kind of touched base on it a little bit, but I am curious because I to be honest with you, and I'm just being a hundred percent open and honest here. I am a little brash about that subject, and I don't mean to be. I don't, I, I, I legitimately don't mean to be. So I mean to be. I think that I can learn a lot because um sometimes I'm just like, get it together, like because but the Lord just changed my life like this, right?
SPEAKER_01And so for me, everything shifted, and I didn't realize until now a couple reasons too, because if you haven't dealt with mental illness, it's hard for you to have the empathy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But also, even as a minister, American churches, and I can't speak for churches around the world, but I can tell you that in American churches and in certain flavors of American churches, they are getting mental health wrong. And so that and and so for me, that part of the book was not hard because I'm feisty about it now. I love it. Like I if I'm in a church service and somebody starts preaching about mental health in a way that is not healthy or accurate. Um, if I have access to that person afterwards, I will go have a conversation because it hurts people. Yeah, I was hurt and suffering for years in church because I could not get the health care, the the mental health care that I needed. And it affected my husband, my marriage, my family, my kids grew up with uh an anxious and depressed mom. Like that's hard. Yeah, you know, and so you know, it and it and it was church. It just was 100% church. And in in my early years, it was ignorance, you know. My family didn't understand mental health either, mental illness or whatever, because I had depression early on. Uh and so it was home life ignorance, which that happens, you know, ignorance, that's okay. Stupidity, but ignorance that was most of my problem. Yeah, stupidity your problem as well. But your but your brain is fully formed, so hopefully you're better with it. Now it is getting close. Yeah, but um, but no, the the mental health part of it is sensitive, and I'm definitely putting it out there, but I know from the work that I do and just ministry in church and as a nurse, like people need to hear what I have to say on that. Yeah, they need to hear it because they don't deserve to be suffering. No more than a person who's physically ill deserves to be suffering. I yeah, I guess it's just how I'm wired, you know, nurse, therapist. I do not like to see somebody suffer in any way whatsoever. And if it's within my power to help them, I'm going to, even if they don't ask, which is a boundary problem on my end. No, but I love it. But like I just I because I don't I want to see people being living as healthy as healthy as they can and like enjoying the life God gave them and enjoying their family and their work and whatever. And it's so sad to see when people, right?
SPEAKER_00Your conviction is to help people that are walking through those things. Like, because for me, to be honest with you, I didn't even realize, like looking back on it now, I didn't even realize that I am probably one of the most anxious people in the world. Oh wow. Like I just because I'm con I'm processing everything that I say all the time. I'm I'm constantly processing everything that everybody else says, and I had to really let go of um what are they thinking about me? Because I oh this person, even just the dumbest little things. I didn't, this person didn't reply to a text message. So do I text them back? Do I not do this? Like I'm just living in this world of constant wanting to be liked, maybe, and that caused a lot of anxiety in me. And I had to, but that was also an identity problem. I had to find it in the Lord. And tell me, do you believe that a lot of people struggle with things like that because they have a lot of unhealthy habits? And like when that relates to being in your word, being, you know, in relationship with Jesus consistently, what are some of the hab or the healthy habits um that you formed in your life? Whether, you know, just kind of open that box a little bit. What are some of the healthy habits somebody can take if they are listening and they are struggling with mental health or they don't think that or they don't know that they are? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01We'll it would take a few podcasts to cover all of that because I could just deep dive into that. But I would say Over an overarching theme would be holistic care. Yeah. So I think when a person is dealing with mental illness, and for people who are not, like really for everybody, God created us spirit, soul, body. So we need to take care of ourselves. We need to, we need to take an assessment of our spiritual life and our spiritual disciplines. First of all, are you born again? Have you surrendered your heart to the Lord? Are you, let's start there? Um, and after that, you know, prayer, Bible reading, you know, um, fellowshipping with other believers, you know, are you sharing your faith? Um, you know, are you memorizing scripture, listening to worship music, like whatever it is that feeds your soul and your spirit and fasting, different things, right? Your spiritual disciplines that helps. Yeah. And the Bible is just full of therapeutic principles, you know, that therapy, you know, psychologists and other scientists are studying and researching. And then we trace it back. We're like, oh, we already knew that, but I'm it's glad I'm glad that you named it and called it something, but that was in the Bible. You know. So um, that's definitely the main one. And then um taking care of your body, like taking care of your physical health is important. Um, and there's a whole slew of those things, right, that we could talk about. Um, and then there's like accessing physical health care for yourself, like even a dentist, as practical as that is. And then um relationships, you know, we're social people. We we thrive and grow in relationships. And your your brain learns from an early age if there was ever dysfunction or there was ever an injury, your brain predicts that in future relationships. So for your brain to heal, you've got to be, you've got to experience life in healthy relationships and and see that there's a different outcome. So now your brain is like, oh, this is a safe place. You can trust this person. Yeah, you know, and marriage is where it'll really, that's where you rub, and that sandpaper can. But if you've got if you get a husband and wife and they get on the same page with that, they're like, okay, now I know what we need to work with here in our marriage. You're you're being a wife with your history of trauma or just you know, life experiences. Not everything's trauma. Probably need to say that. Not everything's trauma, it may be uncomfortable, it may be, and it you don't have to call it trauma to address it. You don't have to call it trauma for it to be a thing.
SPEAKER_00People need to hear that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we there's a lot of therapy lingo going on out there, and something's toxic and trauma, and you know, we could talk about that also over several podcasts, but um, but I think it's important for like in a in any relationship, friends, coworkers, especially marriages, parent, child, you know, that's where stuff comes up. That's where you really get it rises to the surface and you can be aware. So I would say that's also another one. Be self-aware.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, self-aware. So for you, Sean, like what are what are some healthy habits? Because I just really I love listening to the things that you've implemented. What are some healthy habits for you as you've kind of dove deeper into um because for me, I have, you know, I met you at the church and you just decided to jump all in, all these different things. What are some healthy habits that you've recogniz things that you've recognized about yourself, but you continue to implement put into place to make sure that you're in the right place in your life?
SPEAKER_03It's always a work in progress. Yeah. I'm in my mid-50s now. Um, and it and she hit the knell on the head. My wife's over there, she can kind of, she's probably like, what's he gonna say here? I mean, there's all kinds, she gives you a list. But I um interestingly, you know, I think as men, it's hard, I have a hard time admitting, you know, like mental like mental health. I got this, like, come on, you know, get rub some dirt on. You know, that's the coach. But reading your book kind of made me look back at my life and and identify in those areas where I react a certain way because of something. We're all it's all if this, then this computer programming lingo, but like I'll go back to 1987. Um it's gonna be a long speech. It's gonna be two podcasts, I think. Um I was a starting quarterback on the football team. I was a starting point guard, starting pitcher, popular in my little town, you know. Um by eight months later, I had quit school, was selling drugs, gave it all away because of anxiety. At the time I didn't know what it was. But if somebody didn't like me or something wasn't going well, and maybe the maybe the coach was gonna bench me, uh, I had no resiliency, no perseverance. So I've always reacted, I think, throughout my life, you know, because of that, it's like, okay, well, this ain't going well. I gotta get a different job. I gotta get a better job. I should get promoted. I would work hard and I could do really good things in these short spurts, but I had no resiliency and all that based on anxiety. But even reading her book kind of showed me, okay, well, why do I react this way? And and then I have to self-assess and say, and my wife could tell you this that um, and we've been through therapy, mostly her. Um you when you have those instances that used to turn into a volcano, try something different, and then whoa, that worked out okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it's funny, I'll I'll tell this quick story. When we were in South Carolina, my wife lost uh a ring that I had bought in her. Uh is Bolton a word?
SPEAKER_00No, it's not.
SPEAKER_01It is right here, right now. I bought it.
SPEAKER_03And she lost it, and she's looking for it everywhere. And we got the whole place looking for it, right? And I'm like, oh, and then and I and then once I figured out which ring it was, I'm like, that was a few, that was an expensive ring. So we're looking everywhere. And Phyllis is helping. And and I look at Merita and I'm like, which one was it? I said, man, that was that was a like, honey, that's an expensive ring. Like I remember buying that, and Phyllis looks at me and goes, I'm not Joel's marriage counselor, your therapist, but that's not helping. And thankfully, actually, T found it in a glass case. My wife just put it away. And uh I laughed about it later, like not long later, we were sitting around the couch and I'm like, they hit me right between the eyes. I'm like, Well, duh. Yeah. And I did it today. She messed up my computer. Uh uh, she's cleaning my computer in my office, right? And she I come back in and it's the it's all disoriented, it won't work. And I'm like, How about you just don't touch my computer? And she's just turns around and walks out. And I'm like, she's just trying to clean my computer. Yeah. So it's still a daily challenge. I apologize, sort of.
SPEAKER_01But for all of us, it really is for all of us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But but you know, why do I react this way? And sometimes you get bad results. Try to learn from it. Sometimes you can't help it. If the other person just is gonna be mad at you, they're gonna be mad at you. But you can only control what you say, how you react, and your response. And I will say this, that book uh really opened my eyes to some of that because Phyllis was able to take horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, and then turn it around. Good husband, two good young men, a couple grandkids, two good daughter-in-laws against all odds, you know. And that was before, you know, she didn't just meet the Robertsons and everything just showered down greatly, and every relationship was perfect. You did a pretty good job ahead of that. And I think that's the story that a lot of people are gonna be surprised by.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's the beauty of it. I I there is just I just think about testimonies and I think about stories, and I think about, you know, that's not not everybody goes through because I've struggled with this as well. Like, even the, you know, your wife cleans your screen and then everything's all disoriented, and you're like, what in the world? Like, that's your first reaction. And then you really step back and you're like, man, that's not I that's who she is. So when you I I just think it's so valuable to continue to keep the lens inward on yourself and recognize, man, we're all on a constant journey.
SPEAKER_01And that takes some humility to read a book and recognize that because you know what? Sometimes we do need to rub some dirt in it. I agree.
SPEAKER_00And that needs to be said to some people, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It really does. But then other times, like two things can be true. Sometimes it's also because something really hard happened and we learn from it and we didn't learn a healthy way to deal with it. You know, so it's so good that you see that. And even like ministry, I wanted to point that out. I take a deep dive. So if there's any ministers and they think they have an understanding about mental health, I would challenge them to read this because I a deep dive in the intersection between faith and psychology. Yeah. Because, like I said, I feel like we're getting it wrong. And I went to Liberty for my for my graduate degree in therapy, and I I learned so much. And I feel like I I took, I hope I did it justice and put the best of that in this book. Yeah. Um, to back it up with with science and with the Bible. Yeah. And and hopefully give ministers uh at least a an improved perspective.
SPEAKER_00And I like that that's great language because for me, like there is a push and pull because it's like a lot of people here, and it's to you know, a lot of people who aren't, I don't know, it's probably terrible language to say spiritually mature, but people who don't understand it when people are like, just give it all to God, right? Give it all to God, and he'll take care of all that. I'm not saying that he won't, but what I we all still have a responsibility in taking the steps. We all still have a responsibility. So we don't learn without the steps. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01That's the children of Israel that God let them walk around. Like God does not typically just fix a problem just like that. We that and and that's how he designed our brains. He designed our brains to wire and fire and wire together our experiences and to learn healthy things, biblical things. He created it. So it's not like science has created this whole idea of how the brain works. Our creator created our brain, and that's how it works, is when you walk through something, that's where change happens. It doesn't usually happen at the snap of feet.
SPEAKER_00But when you walk, but when you walk through it though, right? Because like people just want to stay stagnant. I think a lot of us get stuck there. We're like, oh no, the Lord's I, you know, he's gonna take care of all it. That's great, but like he's gonna show you the path. You still have to act on it because there's so many, because I there's a lot of people that want to live on the mountaintop. Like I have experienced Jesus in the supernatural way. That's great, but like now, okay, our like call as Christians, is as believers, to is to go back. Life is lived in the valley. If life was lived on the mountaintop, it'd be a hunky-dory, and we wouldn't have to deal with anything. But it's like getting back into the valley to go and tell your story of how the Lord changed your life and the steps that you took to grab somebody else's hand and say, Let me show you what this life can look like.
SPEAKER_01And that person needs to be willing to do it because then we can talk about the victim mentality, and we're like, oh, this has happened to me. Look at me, so sad me. And this book is not that. The book is a direct challenge. Like, now you know.
SPEAKER_02I love that.
SPEAKER_01Now what are you gonna do about it? And I walk through that because it's like we don't need to stay there. And that's hard for people. It's you talk about identity a lot. Sometimes physical and mental illness becomes a person's identity. So who are they without it? That's a and I talk about grief. Like you have you, you're gonna be grieving a part of yourself.
SPEAKER_00People don't know what to do. I've heard people like it. I think that's something that it's a righteous anger. When people when I hear somebody say, I'm depressed, no, you're not. Like you don't have you are. Don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm just saying, like, that's not who God's called you to be. I am this. No, that's not who God's called you to be. You might like that, you feel like that because your identity is found in these things. And there's so many examples in scripture, too, of different people who, you know, if they would have leaned, if they would have stayed right here and took their identity from the season that they were in, then they would have never stepped into what it what was the Lord wanted them to step into.
SPEAKER_01And um there's truth in our words and what we say, and that it's powerful. Like I I try not to refer to stuff as my, like my depression, or and I know that some people may say that's just semantics, and you know, someone from a charismatic background is preaching, like it's clapping and praising the Lord over me saying, and you saying, like, don't say my, don't take ownership of that. Other denominations might say you're splitting hairs, but it is important what we say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because that's part of the change. It, you know, like this is something that I'm dealing with. This is something I'm working on rather than just take ownership of it being your identity and who you are. It doesn't define, but a lot of people, it's defines who they are.
SPEAKER_03And I I think uh it's funny, you always hear the story I'd rather teach you to fish than uh and I'd rather buy you a fish and pole rather than get hand you a fish or whatever. You guys just made me think honestly, as a dad and as a coach, and uh it's so much easier the whole robe with some dirt on it. That's the coach thing. But it's it's really easy to tell myself that. I should be able to tell myself that and be more resilient and get back up and go. Telling somebody else that can be demeaning or whatever, but what you really want to develop, like when I develop in my my kids or my players, when I see them get hurt and something, and I've had this happen many times over the years, a kid that used to lay there every game, every time. You could count on the trainer coming out every time. And then we made it a mantra to not do that. So we went a whole season without having a single trainer come on the field because our whole team became who they wanted to be. And so that kid that used to fall down, he'd still get hit the same, he'd still twist his arm the same, he'd get back up. And as a coach or as a dad or as a leader, that makes you so happy. But how do you help build into people that resiliency, that perseverance? I want him to have everything I didn't have. I was the kid that would lay there, you know. So, how do you build that into them? And the reward from seeing it and calling them out is not the way to do it. It's example, it's accountability, it's knowing this is what you could be. Yeah. And that kid feels great about himself.
SPEAKER_00So many people, but you just said it, it's it's being the example in our daily lives. So many people and we hold so much more influence than we think we do. Um, and people are watching you. I think about how much I analyze people. People are watching you everywhere you go. And so the way that you treat people, the way that you react to situations, being Jesus in those scenarios is so much more valuable than we think. Like not saying things about because there's we banter, we joke, we make, you know, we probably joke too much sometimes. But yeah, I apologize. But I'm just saying, you know, you never know who's around the corner. You never know who's around or in the room that can't handle those things and what they've walked through. So it's being self-aware, it's being, you know, recognizing that uh everybody is on a journey and also realizing that we are too, but it's taking um everything the Lord's given us, everything that we've walked through, and just being that to other people as well. Um, being the example.
SPEAKER_01It takes wisdom to know how to speak to one person over another. If you're coaching some football players, you know, you're gonna be like, pull it together, you know, grit. But if you're talking to your daughter about someone that just broke her heart, if you were to say, get it together, that's just not gonna land as well, right? You know, like read the room. Yeah, use wisdom. Like, who are you talking to? What do you know about their experiences? And if you don't know about their experiences, really tread carefully. It's not that you're worried about political correctness or or being, you know, someone be easily offending them. But there's wisdom. You know what I mean? We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
SPEAKER_03It's funny you say that because I'm looking at my daughters in the back of the room. I would try, so I could say something to Waia, my youngest son, and say it one way. He's like, he'll pop up, he'll get after. I'll say it to her, she'll cry.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03And I'm like, well, what's going on there? Like, I don't understand the combination to this. Who made you? But it's it's it is true. You just but you just want to be resilient. I've always said you you're more uh God's more concerned about our character than our comfort. And that's how we want to be with our kids. You know, I want I'm more worried about your character than your temporary comfort. Yeah. But there is a way to get there.
SPEAKER_01And a lot of it is to let them let them be kids and let them fall and hurt their knee, let them make a mistake where it's safe. Yeah. You know, relative safety of home and parents right there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But let them do things on their own. So they that's where they start to learn a lot of that resilience. And Grit, we do too much for our kids. We've gotten to where we're just we're doing too much. Yeah. And they're not able to learn how to be resilient if they're never given something to be resilient from.
SPEAKER_00There's a difference from being a protect being too protective than being a protector. It's like you can still protect your kids but not be super overbearing.
SPEAKER_01I wish I knew that 30 years ago. Yeah. Ask my kids. I thought my job was to keep them from ever having a boo-boo.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because no one ever really between my family being what they were and also the 80s, you know, like we weren't really parented much in either way, kind of feral. So we learned a lot of grit and resilience. Yeah. So, but I thought I was doing a good job as a mom to like protect my kids from stuff where actually hurt more than I helped. Hopefully, it washes out. They're they're both great. I don't know. They're awesome. I don't know. They they did well in spite of me, I think.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what happened with my daughter in boo-boos. Like, she just loves them. And so she'll just find it like just this little dot. She'll, Daddy, I got a boo-boo. I need three band-aids. And so she just band-aid, band-aid, band-aid, band-aid, band-aid. It's it's the funniest thing ever. Well, hey, um, I think that's one reason I'm super excited for people to read the book is because the different perspectives that you come um at different situations with. You you seem to have a lot of wisdom um looking through the right lenses of because one of the best things that I was ever told is just from a management perspective, you're not gonna get Jimmy over here to do the same thing that you know you can't manage the two the same. Jimmy and Jennifer don't she can't be grit style, like, come on, do this, and then but this takes a little love in a relationship. This is one of those challenging things. And I think it's the same way with people trying to get them out of their rut or whatever it may be. And so I'm super excited about that um for people. So as we wrap up, Phyllis, once again, thank you so much for spending the day with us.
SPEAKER_01Um thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, it's such an honor to have you. But I do have one more question for you. What's the primary thing that you want somebody to get out of this book once they hit the last page?
SPEAKER_01They believe, not just because I said it, they've read the scripture and they've read the science that that they know, okay, this is not just smoke and mirrors, this is not some Cinderella story of somebody else. Somebody that has lived it and studied it actually is telling me, oh, wait, so there's healing, there's hope. And I can actually have control in that part of it. Yeah. Because a lot of people who've been victimized feel like they have a they have no control and they feel powerless, and that's a very sad place to be. But I hope someone feels empowered when they finish reading this book. That, like, wait, this is in my hands with the help of the Lord, you know, and and a and hopefully a community, if they have that, they can find one, even if it's a virtual community nowadays, but they actually can believe themselves that yes, I can do this. The Lord's gonna help me through this.
SPEAKER_00That's good, that's really good. Well, hey, once again, thanks everybody for joining us. We're gonna see if everybody can get it this time. We're gonna include Phyllis. Welcome, or no, not welcome. Thank you for watching the Conviction Exchange. My name is Chandler. My name is Sean. I'm Phyllis. Woo! And we're super excited. If you want some more information on the book I Never Knew, you can go to I Never Knewbook.com and get your copy. We're super excited. Thank you all once again for joining us. We'll talk to you later.
